Given the cost in treasure and blood would we also call NASA a “botched” endeavor?
Some things a nation undertakes are so very difficult and costly we wonder if it is worth it. That doesn’t necessarily mean there was a “lack of planning or incompetent execution”. It’s just damn hard to some things like put men on the moon or change Iraq.
In the long run we learn from our mistakes but keep working toward the goals stated.
The hindsight of Hamilton and Meese can be used for future planning but personally I’m getting tired of all these media attention addicts doing their work in hindsight. When are they going to get out there and be productive with some foresight?
Comment by Steven Plunk — Wednesday, January 31, 2024 @ 3:20 pm
Steve:
This is not just about something being hard–this is about something being hard and being done poorly. It seems quite clear that the administration utterly botched the post-invasion period. If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to bring it up.
The administration clearly went into this without a clear plan as to what was going to happen after the government was toppled, They clearly believed that the new government would mostly spring forth out of nowhere. It has not, as should have been obvious, and so we are where we are.
That’s not negativity, it’s reality.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Wednesday, January 31, 2024 @ 6:03 pm
Dr. Taylor,
With respect, the question of having contrary evidence is a bit of trick. In situations such as war you can always say things could have been done better but you can also say things could have been done worse. It could easily turn into dueling assertions with nothing being proven to the satisfaction of each party.
I guess (I’m falling into this) you could say we have succeeded in keeping casualties lower than expected during the invasion (I believe you must keep the entire operation together, pre-invasion, invasion, and post invasion), we have an Iraqi government in place (not the best but it is a government), intervention by Iran and Syria has been kept somewhat minimal, a complete civil war has been avoided (some would dispute this), and we have certainly planted the seed of democracy within Iraq.
If you want failure look to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. All of the above listed moderate successes failed to materialize during that operation.
Keep in mind failure of a plan (or lack of superbe success) doesn’t mean there wasn’t a plan. I hardly see the present Iraqi government as springing forth from no where but a result of planning and implementation by the US.
A quick look at history’s military disasters will show “botched” operations that make Iraq look anything but.
Thanks.
Comment by Steven Plunk — Wednesday, January 31, 2024 @ 6:49 pm
No, you can’t really lump the invasion and post-invasion together-they are two wholly different phases. Knocking over the government was easy. Building a new one, that’s hard.
However, we haven’t done a very good job of the latter.
A quick look at history’s military disasters will show “botched” operations that make Iraq look anything but.
That would be true only if we were to look at this situation as solely a military op. It isn’t–it is far more complex that that and on the part that is going to matter 5, 10, 15 years down the road, we haven’t done an especially good job.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Wednesday, January 31, 2024 @ 7:12 pm
Given the cost in treasure and blood would we also call NASA a “botched” endeavor?
Some things a nation undertakes are so very difficult and costly we wonder if it is worth it. That doesn’t necessarily mean there was a “lack of planning or incompetent execution”. It’s just damn hard to some things like put men on the moon or change Iraq.
In the long run we learn from our mistakes but keep working toward the goals stated.
The hindsight of Hamilton and Meese can be used for future planning but personally I’m getting tired of all these media attention addicts doing their work in hindsight. When are they going to get out there and be productive with some foresight?
Comment by Steven Plunk — Wednesday, January 31, 2024 @ 3:20 pm
Steve:
This is not just about something being hard–this is about something being hard and being done poorly. It seems quite clear that the administration utterly botched the post-invasion period. If you have evidence to the contrary, feel free to bring it up.
The administration clearly went into this without a clear plan as to what was going to happen after the government was toppled, They clearly believed that the new government would mostly spring forth out of nowhere. It has not, as should have been obvious, and so we are where we are.
That’s not negativity, it’s reality.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Wednesday, January 31, 2024 @ 6:03 pm
Dr. Taylor,
With respect, the question of having contrary evidence is a bit of trick. In situations such as war you can always say things could have been done better but you can also say things could have been done worse. It could easily turn into dueling assertions with nothing being proven to the satisfaction of each party.
I guess (I’m falling into this) you could say we have succeeded in keeping casualties lower than expected during the invasion (I believe you must keep the entire operation together, pre-invasion, invasion, and post invasion), we have an Iraqi government in place (not the best but it is a government), intervention by Iran and Syria has been kept somewhat minimal, a complete civil war has been avoided (some would dispute this), and we have certainly planted the seed of democracy within Iraq.
If you want failure look to the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. All of the above listed moderate successes failed to materialize during that operation.
Keep in mind failure of a plan (or lack of superbe success) doesn’t mean there wasn’t a plan. I hardly see the present Iraqi government as springing forth from no where but a result of planning and implementation by the US.
A quick look at history’s military disasters will show “botched” operations that make Iraq look anything but.
Thanks.
Comment by Steven Plunk — Wednesday, January 31, 2024 @ 6:49 pm
No, you can’t really lump the invasion and post-invasion together-they are two wholly different phases. Knocking over the government was easy. Building a new one, that’s hard.
However, we haven’t done a very good job of the latter.
A quick look at history’s military disasters will show “botched” operations that make Iraq look anything but.
That would be true only if we were to look at this situation as solely a military op. It isn’t–it is far more complex that that and on the part that is going to matter 5, 10, 15 years down the road, we haven’t done an especially good job.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Wednesday, January 31, 2024 @ 7:12 pm