I find it unfortunate that the lessons that many people seem to have “learned” are: a) Mideastern democracies are not possible, b)Deposing dictators is not a worthy endeavor, and c) When a war goes badly, it means it shouldn’t have been engaged.

I don’t think any of these are true. If the war had been an astounding success (as I thought it would be at the time), I would still today be of the opinion that we should not have fought it.

“Pre-emptive”, unilateral wars are a bad thing. Successful or not.

For what it is worth, I said “‘there aren’t going to be any “immediate withdrawals” save in the context of an utter disaster” because if the US started withdrawing right now, it would take months. As such, an “immediate” withdrawal is a fantasy unless there was an emergency withdrawal.

And, also, politically, we are likely months away from even a partial draw down of troops. As such, as a practical matter, there aren’t going to be any “immediate withdrawals.”

Wayne,

Numerous things come to mind. However, I would note that you are utterly missing my point–I made no specific recommendations, all I ultimately said is that we need a realistic evaluation of the situation and that the administration’s view doesn’t appear realistic–however, I note that you seem to buy into the notion that the situation is one of victory v. defeat, which is (as I noted) a false dichotomy.

And when you say the following:

Let’s give them and this Administration the support they deserve so they can complete the mission.

The issue is very much whether the administrations “deserves” any kind of support. They have not been realistic about Iraq since before the invasion–why, therefore, should we assume that they are being realistic now?

BAGHDAD, Iraq (CNN) — Iraqi President Saddam Hussein has offered his condolences to an American citizen for the September 11 terror attacks on the U.S.

But he said however he would not offer condolences to President George W. Bush until the U.S. leader did the same over the deaths of 1.5 million Iraqis that Baghdad blames on 11-year-old U.N. sanctions against Iraq.
http://archives.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/10/20/gen.iraq.letter/

I would then respectfully ask the desk bound white men of the United States, and their associates, who’ve become well known worldwide for spouting brainless bravado like …”We survived and overcame because we did not flinch or weaken in resolve”, to wake up and realize what you’ve actually done.

The US is now seen as the leader of 2st century apartheid. Of white supremacy. Of unchecked greed and lust. You ‘overcame’, through deceit and destruction. And are now seeing the consequences. Becausene thing you’ll never take from even the most destitute, are their memories.
No one’s got your back anymore.

Lastly, I would absolutely challenge the assertion that “‘there aren’t going to be any “immediate withdrawals” save in the context of an utter disaster”.
‘Foreigners’ are the cause of most of Iraq’s disputes.

Did any of you ever look at the list of Iraq’s sanctioned items? The Iraqis were living in poverty before we got there. Now we’ve dropped the equivalent of a large American city in their laps, full of Americans filled with hate and Pinochet leftovers, sucking even more of their pitiful resources and terrorizing their children.

Because Bush and the Congress saw Iraqi’s flying those planes?

Well here’s some good ol’ American bravado back at ya:
Mess with my family like that and I’d fight to the death too.

Nationalism is not terrorism.

Wayne

Anbar does not success make, it is a small part of a far bigger puzzle.

There has been preliminary agreement on a possible oil deal, but nothing has been formally agreed upon.

You really make my arguments for me to the point that you post almost reads like a parody of what I am talking about.

Wayne Elkins