Comments on: More Thoughts on Honduras http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183 A rough draft of my thoughts... Thu, 08 Dec 2024 05:27:48 -0600 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: PoliBlog: A Rough Draft of my Thoughts » Getting Down to Basics in Honduras http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183&cpage=1#comment-1380187 PoliBlog: A Rough Draft of my Thoughts » Getting Down to Basics in Honduras Wed, 08 Jul 2024 18:02:12 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183#comment-1380187 [...] Even if it is true that Zelaya contravened Article 239 of the constitution and that meant he should have been removed from office, the fact that summary judgment, arrest and exile were employed in lieu of transparent due process made this a coup. Indeed, as I (and others) have noted, it is legitimately debatable that what Zelaya was attempted did, in fact, violate article 239 (see here). [...] [...] Even if it is true that Zelaya contravened Article 239 of the constitution and that meant he should have been removed from office, the fact that summary judgment, arrest and exile were employed in lieu of transparent due process made this a coup. Indeed, as I (and others) have noted, it is legitimately debatable that what Zelaya was attempted did, in fact, violate article 239 (see here). [...]

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By: Steven L. Taylor http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183&cpage=1#comment-1380051 Steven L. Taylor Sun, 05 Jul 2024 00:12:29 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183#comment-1380051 Noel, I concur: there is plenty of blame to go around. I would argue, however, that of the wrongs on the table, the coup was the worst of the grievances. It certainly ramped up the crisis to stratospheric levels! Happy 4th to you as well and good luck with the fam! S Noel,

I concur: there is plenty of blame to go around. I would argue, however, that of the wrongs on the table, the coup was the worst of the grievances. It certainly ramped up the crisis to stratospheric levels!

Happy 4th to you as well and good luck with the fam!

S

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By: Noel Maurer http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183&cpage=1#comment-1380050 Noel Maurer Sun, 05 Jul 2024 00:08:20 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183#comment-1380050 Spanish "version," not translation. Caray. Spanish “version,” not translation. Caray.

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By: Noel Maurer http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183&cpage=1#comment-1380048 Noel Maurer Sun, 05 Jul 2024 00:04:31 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183#comment-1380048 Jack@18: I've translated a couple relevant articles over on my blog. I agree with Steven that Georgetown has the best Spanish translation, but the Honduran congress has a great legislative history of every amendment, plus the reasoning behind 'em. I'd link, but this coming from an iPhone in Miami listening to my relatives discuss health care reform and the proper way to cultivate cannabis plants. Don't ask. The link should be somewhere on my blog. Once again, Happy Fourth! The explosions are already starting down here. Jack@18: I’ve translated a couple relevant articles over on my blog. I agree with Steven that Georgetown has the best Spanish translation, but the Honduran congress has a great legislative history of every amendment, plus the reasoning behind ‘em.

I’d link, but this coming from an iPhone in Miami listening to my relatives discuss health care reform and the proper way to cultivate cannabis plants. Don’t ask. The link should be somewhere on my blog.

Once again, Happy Fourth! The explosions are already starting down here.

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By: Noel Maurer http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183&cpage=1#comment-1380046 Noel Maurer Sat, 04 Jul 2024 23:49:49 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183#comment-1380046 Hi again, Steven! Here's the thing. The evidence seems pretty clear by now. Everybody is correct! Zelaya broke the law by calling a referendum on a constitutional convention. The military then broke the law when it shoved the President into an airplane and shipped him off. There's still lots of room to argue that the Supreme Court was stupid to order his arrest, or, conversely, that the military prevented violence by exiling him. (You read my blog, so you know my position, and yes, I've changed my mind.). But that deposing Zelaya was legal and that exiling him was most certainly not are not things that we should still be debating at this point. Happy Fourth! Hi again, Steven! Here’s the thing. The evidence seems pretty clear by now. Everybody is correct! Zelaya broke the law by calling a referendum on a constitutional convention. The military then broke the law when it shoved the President into an airplane and shipped him off.

There’s still lots of room to argue that the Supreme Court was stupid to order his arrest, or, conversely, that the military prevented violence by exiling him. (You read my blog, so you know my position, and yes, I’ve changed my mind.).

But that deposing Zelaya was legal and that exiling him was most certainly not are not things that we should still be debating at this point.

Happy Fourth!

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By: Steven L. Taylor http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183&cpage=1#comment-1380033 Steven L. Taylor Sat, 04 Jul 2024 17:37:23 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183#comment-1380033 At the end of the day, neither the OAS nor the US (or anyone else) will be able to do much in terms of ruling on anything. They can denounce and they can also cut off aid, but beyond that: nothing. At the end of the day, neither the OAS nor the US (or anyone else) will be able to do much in terms of ruling on anything. They can denounce and they can also cut off aid, but beyond that: nothing.

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By: doug http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183&cpage=1#comment-1380018 doug Sat, 04 Jul 2024 06:27:51 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183#comment-1380018 As usual, an interesting post with plenty of food for thought. What gives me pause about this situation is that both the legislative and judicial branches of government supported the arrest, if not the exile, of Zelaya. His own party controls congress. His former vice president will be the party's candidate in the November elections, and may very well win. In other words, this wasn't an ideological shift in power, a la almost every Latin American coup/revolution I can think of. So, let's say that next week the Honduran supreme court officially rules that the exile was constitutional and legal. What then? Does the OAS overrule them? Or if the supreme court rules that Zelaya was illegally exiled and should be allowed to return to the country, as a citizen not as president, and tried for his "crimes"...what does the US or OAS do? Demand Zelaya be reinstated as president before being tried? Should the US claim that <em>we</em> are the final arbiters of Honduran constitutional disputes, not their supreme court? I <a href="http://www.lanacion.com.ar/1146520" rel="nofollow">was reading</a> in La Nación (from Argentina) that Insulza, secretary general of the OAS, met with Honduran supreme court and they basically told him to pound sand. Pragmatically speaking, at what point do we step back, let Micheletti serve as acting president (from same party as Zelaya, although not best of friends), make sure that international observers are allowed in November, and let elections run their course in four months? I'm not sure. I'd be interested in your take, Steven. How far should the US/OAS push if we're getting push-back from the other institutions inside Honduras? Are there analogous situations from the past that we can look back to for guidance? And a quick thought/observation: As for interpreting the Honduran constitution, from both sides of this debate...seriously? Give the US constitution to a Honduran lawyer and ask them to find a right to an abortion, a right to privacy, or where Miranda rights come from. Good luck with that. Unless they've studied US constitutional law I doubt they'd be able to. Perhaps I would lose money, but I’d wager that most of us, however well we speak Spanish or how long we’ve studied Latin America, are wasting our time rendering opinions as to what article XYZ means. Maybe someone could provide link(s) where Honduran lawyers are arguing about these very issues? As usual, an interesting post with plenty of food for thought.

What gives me pause about this situation is that both the legislative and judicial branches of government supported the arrest, if not the exile, of Zelaya.

His own party controls congress. His former vice president will be the party’s candidate in the November elections, and may very well win. In other words, this wasn’t an ideological shift in power, a la almost every Latin American coup/revolution I can think of.

So, let’s say that next week the Honduran supreme court officially rules that the exile was constitutional and legal. What then? Does the OAS overrule them? Or if the supreme court rules that Zelaya was illegally exiled and should be allowed to return to the country, as a citizen not as president, and tried for his “crimes”…what does the US or OAS do? Demand Zelaya be reinstated as president before being tried? Should the US claim that we are the final arbiters of Honduran constitutional disputes, not their supreme court? I was reading in La Nación (from Argentina) that Insulza, secretary general of the OAS, met with Honduran supreme court and they basically told him to pound sand.

Pragmatically speaking, at what point do we step back, let Micheletti serve as acting president (from same party as Zelaya, although not best of friends), make sure that international observers are allowed in November, and let elections run their course in four months?

I’m not sure. I’d be interested in your take, Steven. How far should the US/OAS push if we’re getting push-back from the other institutions inside Honduras? Are there analogous situations from the past that we can look back to for guidance?

And a quick thought/observation:

As for interpreting the Honduran constitution, from both sides of this debate…seriously? Give the US constitution to a Honduran lawyer and ask them to find a right to an abortion, a right to privacy, or where Miranda rights come from. Good luck with that. Unless they’ve studied US constitutional law I doubt they’d be able to. Perhaps I would lose money, but I’d wager that most of us, however well we speak Spanish or how long we’ve studied Latin America, are wasting our time rendering opinions as to what article XYZ means.

Maybe someone could provide link(s) where Honduran lawyers are arguing about these very issues?

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By: Steven L. Taylor http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183&cpage=1#comment-1380013 Steven L. Taylor Sat, 04 Jul 2024 03:36:49 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183#comment-1380013 None that I am aware of. I have been using the Spanish version at Georgetown's Political Database of the Americas. None that I am aware of. I have been using the Spanish version at Georgetown’s Political Database of the Americas.

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By: Jack Okie http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183&cpage=1#comment-1380012 Jack Okie Sat, 04 Jul 2024 03:32:13 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183#comment-1380012 Thanks for the link. I'll check out your other Honduras posts. Do you know if there is (yet) an authoritative English translation of the Honduran constitution. Thanks for the link. I’ll check out your other Honduras posts. Do you know if there is (yet) an authoritative English translation of the Honduran constitution.

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By: Steven L. Taylor http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183&cpage=1#comment-1380011 Steven L. Taylor Sat, 04 Jul 2024 03:30:18 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=16183#comment-1380011 Here's the link: <a href="http://poliblogger.com/?p=16185" rel="nofollow">click</a>. And I have written far more than just this post. Just go to main page and scroll down or search on "Honduras". I suspect I have written over a dozen, which include looking at various constitutional provisions. Here’s the link: click.

And I have written far more than just this post. Just go to main page and scroll down or search on “Honduras”. I suspect I have written over a dozen, which include looking at various constitutional provisions.

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