Comments on: Dogma isn’t Just for the Religious http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391 A rough draft of my thoughts... Sat, 18 Nov 2024 05:47:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.4 by: PoliBlog: Politics is the Master Science » The Evil that Books Do http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-68729 Wed, 01 Jun 2024 15:57:24 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-68729 [...] nd Hitler would have been Hitler had he written the book or not. I found the inclusion of John Stuart Mill’s On Liberty (one of my personal favorites) on the “Honorable Mentionâ€? list (shouldn’ [...] […] nd Hitler would have been Hitler had he written the book or not. I found the inclusion of John Stuart Mill’s On Liberty (one of my personal favorites) on the “Honorable Mentionâ€? list (shouldn’ […]

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by: wolfwalker http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26533 Thu, 25 Nov 2024 00:54:52 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26533 Steven, <blockquote>However, explain to me why it damages the presentation of the theory of evolution to suggest that there may be a Creator?</blockquote> It doesn't. What damages the presentation of evolutionary theory <i>as science</i> is the suggestion that the arguments of anti-evolutionists have any scientific merit. They don't. Some of them never did. Others did once, but not any more. The last sensible objection to evolutionary theory was demolished forty years ago when geneticists started unraveling the secrets of DNA, and microbiologists started exploring the hidden world of the cell. The only possible scientific use for anti-evolutionists' claims would be as a roadmap for how to teach evolutionary theory. That is, many of the questions raised by anti-evolutionists are valid: they're the questions evolutionary theory had to answer in order to be accepted. Showing how the theory answered those questions would be a good way to teach the theory in the classroom. But that's not what the anti-evolutionists want. They don't want students to get the answers evolutionary theory provides to those questions. They want students to be taught that evolutionary theory <i>can't</i> answer their questions ... with an attendant implication that creationism is a scientifically valid alternative. And that's simply wrong. Steven,

However, explain to me why it damages the presentation of the theory of evolution to suggest that there may be a Creator?

It doesn’t. What damages the presentation of evolutionary theory as science is the suggestion that the arguments of anti-evolutionists have any scientific merit. They don’t. Some of them never did. Others did once, but not any more. The last sensible objection to evolutionary theory was demolished forty years ago when geneticists started unraveling the secrets of DNA, and microbiologists started exploring the hidden world of the cell. The only possible scientific use for anti-evolutionists’ claims would be as a roadmap for how to teach evolutionary theory. That is, many of the questions raised by anti-evolutionists are valid: they’re the questions evolutionary theory had to answer in order to be accepted. Showing how the theory answered those questions would be a good way to teach the theory in the classroom.

But that’s not what the anti-evolutionists want. They don’t want students to get the answers evolutionary theory provides to those questions. They want students to be taught that evolutionary theory can’t answer their questions … with an attendant implication that creationism is a scientifically valid alternative. And that’s simply wrong.

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by: Steven Taylor http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26497 Wed, 24 Nov 2024 18:37:05 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26497 Indeed--and my previous comment was intended to exclude those folks from my criticism. However, explain to me why it damages the presentation of the theory of evolution to suggest that there may be a Creator? Indeed–and my previous comment was intended to exclude those folks from my criticism.

However, explain to me why it damages the presentation of the theory of evolution to suggest that there may be a Creator?

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by: wolfwalker http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26496 Wed, 24 Nov 2024 18:26:33 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26496 Steven, <blockquote>What I find interesting is that many who argue the evolutionist side base their position primarily on an anti-theistic view and simply base what they know on reading some books and listening to some experts (which is precisely how most anti-evolutionists reach their positions). Now, one can argue over the quality of the experts, but there are some clear parallels here–and it often comes down to belief on both sides.</blockquote> A fair point. Indeed, there are evolution-defenders who are as you describe -- too many of them, if you ask me. However, there are also plenty of evolution-defenders who don't just "read some books and listen to some experts." Many evolution-defenders are themselves career scientists or college science professors. Many more are interested amateurs -- interested enough to learn the subject so thoroughly that even career scientists and professors consider them experts. These people don't believe evolutionary theory and reject ID because somebody else told them to. They believe the one and reject the other because they've seen the original evidence up close and personal, and the evidence says "evolution happened." Steven,

What I find interesting is that many who argue the evolutionist side base their position primarily on an anti-theistic view and simply base what they know on reading some books and listening to some experts (which is precisely how most anti-evolutionists reach their positions). Now, one can argue over the quality of the experts, but there are some clear parallels here–and it often comes down to belief on both sides.

A fair point. Indeed, there are evolution-defenders who are as you describe — too many of them, if you ask me. However, there are also plenty of evolution-defenders who don’t just “read some books and listen to some experts.” Many evolution-defenders are themselves career scientists or college science professors. Many more are interested amateurs — interested enough to learn the subject so thoroughly that even career scientists and professors consider them experts. These people don’t believe evolutionary theory and reject ID because somebody else told them to. They believe the one and reject the other because they’ve seen the original evidence up close and personal, and the evidence says “evolution happened.”

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by: bryan http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26494 Wed, 24 Nov 2024 17:59:18 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26494 <i>What we teach in the science classroom is what has withstood the challenge of the harshest treatment that academia can offer.</i> That is the funniest line I've read all week. What we teach in the science classroom is what has withstood the challenge of the harshest treatment that academia can offer.

That is the funniest line I’ve read all week.

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by: Steven Taylor http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26492 Wed, 24 Nov 2024 16:51:39 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26492 Quite frankly I am a moderate on this topic (indeed, I suspect many of my church-going friends might even consider me liberal on this one). What I find interesting is that many who argue the evolutionist side base their position primarily on an anti-theistic view and simply base what they know on reading some books and listening to some experts (which is precisely how most anti-evolutionists reach their positions). Now, one can argue over the quality of the experts, but there are some clear parallels here--and it often comes down to belief on both sides. (And I don't direct that comment at the scientists themselves, as that is a different issue entirely). Quite frankly I am a moderate on this topic (indeed, I suspect many of my church-going friends might even consider me liberal on this one). What I find interesting is that many who argue the evolutionist side base their position primarily on an anti-theistic view and simply base what they know on reading some books and listening to some experts (which is precisely how most anti-evolutionists reach their positions). Now, one can argue over the quality of the experts, but there are some clear parallels here–and it often comes down to belief on both sides. (And I don’t direct that comment at the scientists themselves, as that is a different issue entirely).

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by: Steven Taylor http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26491 Wed, 24 Nov 2024 16:48:28 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26491 Understand: I am not defending ID, per se. What I am defending is that idea that the mere mention of the concept that there might be a Creator is going to turn kids' heads to mush is a bit extreme. Further, I am arguing that many who support evolution/oppose ID or some other theistic view of things, often attack this issue with religious fervor equal to that of the anti-evolutionists. Understand: I am not defending ID, per se. What I am defending is that idea that the mere mention of the concept that there might be a Creator is going to turn kids’ heads to mush is a bit extreme. Further, I am arguing that many who support evolution/oppose ID or some other theistic view of things, often attack this issue with religious fervor equal to that of the anti-evolutionists.

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by: Joshua White http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26490 Wed, 24 Nov 2024 16:40:07 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26490 Steven, As a scientist I have no problem with the idea of scientifically working with the possibility of a creative force in the universe. My problem is that right now there is no science behind the concept. What we teach in the science classroom is what has withstood the challenge of the harshest treatment that academia can offer. It deserves to be there. My problem is that the supporters of ID want to totally bypass that process and have their beliefs (there is no research for it to be called knowledge yet) put into the classroom wrongly. This is why you see school board fights, lawsuits, and books in the mall instead of real research and publications. This whole process is religiously (not scientifically) motivated which is why it can be unconstitutional (according to the first part of the Lemon test). Behe, Dembski and Wells have all made that clear in churches around the country. Get some labs, do some research, write some publications and then I will respect ID. Steven,
As a scientist I have no problem with the idea of scientifically working with the possibility of a creative force in the universe. My problem is that right now there is no science behind the concept. What we teach in the science classroom is what has withstood the challenge of the harshest treatment that academia can offer. It deserves to be there. My problem is that the supporters of ID want to totally bypass that process and have their beliefs (there is no research for it to be called knowledge yet) put into the classroom wrongly. This is why you see school board fights, lawsuits, and books in the mall instead of real research and publications. This whole process is religiously (not scientifically) motivated which is why it can be unconstitutional (according to the first part of the Lemon test). Behe, Dembski and Wells have all made that clear in churches around the country. Get some labs, do some research, write some publications and then I will respect ID.

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by: Steven Taylor http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26488 Wed, 24 Nov 2024 15:48:50 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=5391#comment-26488 Indeed and amen (if I may use the term):<blockquote>Education schools make this worse - they aren't taught by experts in subject matter, they are taught by people who were taught by people who were taught by experts in subject matter, so the subject matter taught is often out of date. Even the teaching methods taught tend to be based on theory that lags about 20 years or more behind the state of the art in psychology, content lags even further behind.</blockquote> Indeed and amen (if I may use the term):
Education schools make this worse - they aren’t taught by experts in subject matter, they are taught by people who were taught by people who were taught by experts in subject matter, so the subject matter taught is often out of date. Even the teaching methods taught tend to be based on theory that lags about 20 years or more behind the state of the art in psychology, content lags even further behind.

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