Comments on: The Competenence Issue and the Domestic Side of the WoT http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583 A rough draft of my thoughts... Mon, 08 May 2024 18:04:32 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1.2 by: paul a'barge http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-491075 Mon, 20 Mar 2024 22:55:15 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-491075 Please check the reportage by Debra Burlingame about the Moussaoui trial. It turns out that the judge is most likely a big, stinking liberal and is anti-death penalty. She (the judge) completely sand-bagged the prosecutors in this... she went, way, way over the top. And, the one person who created the issue, a female TSA lawyer, came virtually out of no where to setup this scenario. Watch, as the information unfolds about here. Hints have been in the news for several days. Again, I'm not disputing your point. For example, I wish that Sami Al-Arian had got the book thrown at him. However, I attribute many (not all) of the problems with these prosecutions to the fundamental tension between a terror-prosecution and the nature of our "individual-rights" legal system. Not that I'd like to dump what we have, but it may be asking too much for any prosecutor, or US President for that matter, to be able to nail these monsters in today's partisan climate with government-hating, pro-individual rights defense attorneys holding as much power in American courts, as they do today. Please check the reportage by Debra Burlingame about the Moussaoui trial. It turns out that the judge is most likely a big, stinking liberal and is anti-death penalty. She (the judge) completely sand-bagged the prosecutors in this… she went, way, way over the top. And, the one person who created the issue, a female TSA lawyer, came virtually out of no where to setup this scenario. Watch, as the information unfolds about here. Hints have been in the news for several days.

Again, I’m not disputing your point. For example, I wish that Sami Al-Arian had got the book thrown at him.

However, I attribute many (not all) of the problems with these prosecutions to the fundamental tension between a terror-prosecution and the nature of our “individual-rights” legal system.

Not that I’d like to dump what we have, but it may be asking too much for any prosecutor, or US President for that matter, to be able to nail these monsters in today’s partisan climate with government-hating, pro-individual rights defense attorneys holding as much power in American courts, as they do today.

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by: bg http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-484751 Sat, 18 Mar 2024 03:40:04 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-484751 Matthew: Counterinsurgency in regards specifically to the War on Terror because we are caught within a social/political/religious (all the same in the Islamic extremist's mind) insurgency within a Islam. Counterterrorism itself if can be a form or counterguerilla, which is what we call the kinetic, or military aspect of counterinsurgency (as opposed to the political). We must look at the WoT as something much bigger than some rogue Muslims who want to bomb Americans out of hate. Terrorism is merely a method of operation, a tactic. Terrorism is a part of the overall strategy, just as counterterrorism is a aspect of the overall counterinsurgency. Terrorism is means to an end, defeating it does not defeat the purpose of that terrorism. It all sounds like an academic war of semantics, sorry. The point is when you only fight terrorism, you are only treating the symptoms and are ignoring the disease. Matthew: Counterinsurgency in regards specifically to the War on Terror because we are caught within a social/political/religious (all the same in the Islamic extremist’s mind) insurgency within a Islam. Counterterrorism itself if can be a form or counterguerilla, which is what we call the kinetic, or military aspect of counterinsurgency (as opposed to the political).

We must look at the WoT as something much bigger than some rogue Muslims who want to bomb Americans out of hate. Terrorism is merely a method of operation, a tactic. Terrorism is a part of the overall strategy, just as counterterrorism is a aspect of the overall counterinsurgency. Terrorism is means to an end, defeating it does not defeat the purpose of that terrorism.

It all sounds like an academic war of semantics, sorry. The point is when you only fight terrorism, you are only treating the symptoms and are ignoring the disease.

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by: Matthew Shugart/Fruits & Votes http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-484679 Fri, 17 Mar 2024 23:11:51 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-484679 Steven, point well taken that I might have applied too narrow an interpretation to your "disruptions" in foreign bases, though I think the human intelligence has significant limits in societies that are as closed to outsiders as Islamist circles are. On military action, of course, I did not mean to imply that it never justified (and I don't <i>think</i> that could be inferred from my remarks). In fact, my remarks were meant to be favorable to the cruise missile strikes launched by Clinton in Afghanistan (based on the info available at the time, anyway). But I would set the bar for military opertations higher than this administration has, in part for the reason I articulated above (their political counter-productivity, unless they provide a very high immediate benefit). At a minimum, they should be directed at locations or governments that actually support Islamist terrorist organzations. In other words, overthrowing the Taliban was a no-brainer. Iraq is another story entirely. Steven, point well taken that I might have applied too narrow an interpretation to your “disruptions” in foreign bases, though I think the human intelligence has significant limits in societies that are as closed to outsiders as Islamist circles are.

On military action, of course, I did not mean to imply that it never justified (and I don’t think that could be inferred from my remarks). In fact, my remarks were meant to be favorable to the cruise missile strikes launched by Clinton in Afghanistan (based on the info available at the time, anyway).

But I would set the bar for military opertations higher than this administration has, in part for the reason I articulated above (their political counter-productivity, unless they provide a very high immediate benefit). At a minimum, they should be directed at locations or governments that actually support Islamist terrorist organzations.

In other words, overthrowing the Taliban was a no-brainer. Iraq is another story entirely.

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by: Matthew Shugart/Fruits & Votes http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-484590 Fri, 17 Mar 2024 20:09:10 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-484590 (Re bg's comment:) I think it is only partially accurate to think of counterterrorism as counterinsurgency. But I am not the expert. Kingdaddy, at Arms and Influence, has had several terrific posts on this theme. (Re bg’s comment:) I think it is only partially accurate to think of counterterrorism as counterinsurgency. But I am not the expert. Kingdaddy, at Arms and Influence, has had several terrific posts on this theme.

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by: ProfessorBainbridge.com http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-484459 Fri, 17 Mar 2024 19:25:57 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-484459 <strong>Terror Prosecutions</strong> Steven Taylor offers a critical analysis of the Bush administration's record on terror prosecutions. Terror Prosecutions

Steven Taylor offers a critical analysis of the Bush administration’s record on terror prosecutions.

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by: bg http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-484025 Fri, 17 Mar 2024 13:25:37 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-484025 Essentially, the War on Terror is a counterinsurgency. The tough part is that we are not truly the targets of the insurgent (the Islamic extremists), we are simply a diversion, a scapegoat. The goal of the Islamic extremists (for lack of a better word because Salafists, Wahhabis and Al Qaeda are not broad enough terms) is not simply to separate themselves from mainstream Islam, as the Protestants Reformists did hundreds of years ago, but to reform all of Islam into their own interpretation. The true target of those attacking the U.S. is not Americans, it is the Muslim community. Predecessors to Bin Laden were not very successful in bringing down non-Islamic governments (such as Egypt and Jordan) because the extremists did not have the support of the Muslim community (Muslims attacking Muslims is never a popular thing). Bin Laden realized that the best way to unite the Muslims of the world to his cause was to find a common enemy, thus, the Evil Westerners. The ill-omened trinity of U.S., Briton and Israel. Once you understand that, it becomes a little more apparent why we must target these extremists abroad. Simply locking up our borders and playing "prevent defense" is not the right course of action. (how many times have we seen the Cowboys put on the prevent defense and get burned, I think it happened twice in one Monday night game this year). Playing defense at home will stop most attacks, however, we are treating the symptoms, not the disease. Attacking the cancer where it grows, such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and many other countries is where we must be. Not always military of course, this is a political and social fight. Military intervention is just a tool in the tool kit. We do not need overt presence in a country to disrupt the extremists, but we do need to take some form of action to deny sanctuary. Essentially, the War on Terror is a counterinsurgency. The tough part is that we are not truly the targets of the insurgent (the Islamic extremists), we are simply a diversion, a scapegoat.

The goal of the Islamic extremists (for lack of a better word because Salafists, Wahhabis and Al Qaeda are not broad enough terms) is not simply to separate themselves from mainstream Islam, as the Protestants Reformists did hundreds of years ago, but to reform all of Islam into their own interpretation. The true target of those attacking the U.S. is not Americans, it is the Muslim community.

Predecessors to Bin Laden were not very successful in bringing down non-Islamic governments (such as Egypt and Jordan) because the extremists did not have the support of the Muslim community (Muslims attacking Muslims is never a popular thing). Bin Laden realized that the best way to unite the Muslims of the world to his cause was to find a common enemy, thus, the Evil Westerners. The ill-omened trinity of U.S., Briton and Israel.

Once you understand that, it becomes a little more apparent why we must target these extremists abroad. Simply locking up our borders and playing “prevent defense” is not the right course of action. (how many times have we seen the Cowboys put on the prevent defense and get burned, I think it happened twice in one Monday night game this year).

Playing defense at home will stop most attacks, however, we are treating the symptoms, not the disease. Attacking the cancer where it grows, such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and many other countries is where we must be. Not always military of course, this is a political and social fight. Military intervention is just a tool in the tool kit. We do not need overt presence in a country to disrupt the extremists, but we do need to take some form of action to deny sanctuary.

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by: Dr. Steven Taylor http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-483826 Thu, 16 Mar 2024 21:41:02 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-483826 I would take a rather broad view of such "disruption" to include far better human intelligence abroad than we had/currently have. Also law enforcement cooperation aborad. I also think that military actions, such as the action in Afghanistan, are sometimes necessary. I need to get back to work, so I will leave it at for at least the moment. I would take a rather broad view of such “disruption” to include far better human intelligence abroad than we had/currently have. Also law enforcement cooperation aborad.

I also think that military actions, such as the action in Afghanistan, are sometimes necessary.

I need to get back to work, so I will leave it at for at least the moment.

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by: Matthew Shugart/Fruits & Votes http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-483825 Thu, 16 Mar 2024 21:34:10 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-483825 You raise something here that is one of the really critical questions in the effort to prevent Islamist (or other foreign-originating) terrorist attacks. I do not know what the answer is, but I am extremely skeptical that they key to prevention is "the disruption of terror networks abroad" unless by abroad, you mean in London, Hamburg, Canada, etc. I just think there is not a lot we can do about training and recruitment in countries where the population is generally hostile to US presence; in fact, I suspect our presence there is counterproductive in most cases. On the other hand, intelligence work, including surveilance--with proper checks, of course--can disrupt potential attackers as they enter the USA or after they have arrived. The 9/11 plot could have been unravelled with better information sharing (and probably with more vigilance from the NSC and White House, when "the system was blinking red," as the 9/11 Commission puts it), and the LAX plot was stopped by an alert border guard at the Washington-BC border. Neither could have been disrupted by "disrupting" the camps and the recruitment centers in Afghanistan, Pakistian, and other countries, because you do not know who the actual attackers are at the stage that they are being recruited and trained. Naturally, if there are camps in the open somewhere, they can be raided from the air or ground, but as the 9/11 Commisison also notes, it was not practical before 9/11 to do much more than the missile attacks Clinton ordered (because you could not get cooperation regionally for anything more) and after 9/11 it was far, far too late (as Michael Scheurer has noted). In fact, even a year or more before 9/11 it was probably too late for any attacks by US forces in Afghanistan to have stopped the attacks. Sorry for rambling. I do not know the answer here, but I strongly suspect that it is disruption of those in the "West" (including on our own soil) and at the borders that is most effective, not in foreign countries (if that means outside of Western countries). You raise something here that is one of the really critical questions in the effort to prevent Islamist (or other foreign-originating) terrorist attacks. I do not know what the answer is, but I am extremely skeptical that they key to prevention is “the disruption of terror networks abroad” unless by abroad, you mean in London, Hamburg, Canada, etc. I just think there is not a lot we can do about training and recruitment in countries where the population is generally hostile to US presence; in fact, I suspect our presence there is counterproductive in most cases.

On the other hand, intelligence work, including surveilance–with proper checks, of course–can disrupt potential attackers as they enter the USA or after they have arrived. The 9/11 plot could have been unravelled with better information sharing (and probably with more vigilance from the NSC and White House, when “the system was blinking red,” as the 9/11 Commission puts it), and the LAX plot was stopped by an alert border guard at the Washington-BC border. Neither could have been disrupted by “disrupting” the camps and the recruitment centers in Afghanistan, Pakistian, and other countries, because you do not know who the actual attackers are at the stage that they are being recruited and trained.

Naturally, if there are camps in the open somewhere, they can be raided from the air or ground, but as the 9/11 Commisison also notes, it was not practical before 9/11 to do much more than the missile attacks Clinton ordered (because you could not get cooperation regionally for anything more) and after 9/11 it was far, far too late (as Michael Scheurer has noted). In fact, even a year or more before 9/11 it was probably too late for any attacks by US forces in Afghanistan to have stopped the attacks.

Sorry for rambling. I do not know the answer here, but I strongly suspect that it is disruption of those in the “West” (including on our own soil) and at the borders that is most effective, not in foreign countries (if that means outside of Western countries).

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by: Dr. Steven Taylor http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-483824 Thu, 16 Mar 2024 21:32:50 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-483824 Further, the administration has directly told us that we need to be wary of further terrorist activity in the US. Now, as I note in the post, either we aren't doing a very good job of catching these people, or there aren't as many to catch as the President thinks there are. Further, the administration has directly told us that we need to be wary of further terrorist activity in the US. Now, as I note in the post, either we aren’t doing a very good job of catching these people, or there aren’t as many to catch as the President thinks there are.

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by: Dr. Steven Taylor http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-483823 Thu, 16 Mar 2024 21:30:46 +0000 http://poliblogger.com/?p=9583#comment-483823 Well, we are talking about federal prosecutions by the federal Department of Justice in the context of the President himself asking for (or asserting) various powers to deal with this problem. As such, who do you think should be held responsible? Do I think that the President is personally responsible for every error? No, that is obviously ridiculous, but it the overall approach is being directed by appointees of the President. As such, the buck does have to stop, ultimately, with him. Well, we are talking about federal prosecutions by the federal Department of Justice in the context of the President himself asking for (or asserting) various powers to deal with this problem.

As such, who do you think should be held responsible?

Do I think that the President is personally responsible for every error? No, that is obviously ridiculous, but it the overall approach is being directed by appointees of the President. As such, the buck does have to stop, ultimately, with him.

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