My opinion would be that you're a typical politician.

I really don't see it that way. And I am not talking about a Rep-Dem dichotomy. I don't see Lieberman, Dean, Gephardt acting like this. I don't recall Jerry Brown or Dukakis or Bentsen, or Mondale or whomever. Do they all engage in some exaggeration? Sure. But Gore had a much more pronounced pattern. Why is that so hard to concede?

I'd love to respond . . . or concede. But I'm off to meet a Med Fly at Boston Harbor. We're going to Vietnam.

Chicken! :)

Seriously--sounds interesting. And while we clearly don't agree, I appreciate a reasonable dialog.

OR put the politics back in it...

If a President makes a claim that his predecessor from another party made and it turned out to be not true would the President(s) be lying or would the intelligence be flawed?

It seems the Dems have answered this question with the same amount of reason as to be expected.

I get your point that objectively everyone should be able to recognize it. But I just thought maybe some the "have it both wayers" might see themselves in my question.

They will argue to their deaths that Gore really did create the internet but see Bush as a liar when he repeats what Clinton said. (But of course Clinton was telling the truth back then if you ask them.)

The irony is, we KNOW Gore did not create the internet. The jury is still out on what Saddam did with the weapons. Bush and Clinton may well be proved correct.

Will any of the "have it both wayers" here admit their metrics for truthfulness are wildly skewed?

That sound you hear is me not holding my breath.

Paul

Inadvertently, Steven proves my point. He uses the example of his interview of Pastrana to make a claim he knows Pastrana "fairly well."

If Steven's claim had become a point of contention--and it's doubtful because it's extremely subjective--one could easily verify it by asking Pastrana. Pastrana could then verify that, yes, he has a relationship with Steven, or, no, he gives thousands of interviews and doesn't recall Steven.

WRT Gore-internet story, the man who is considered to be the "father" of the internet, Vinton Cerf, has endorsed Gore's comments on the subject.

In the end, hacks like Steven are willing to accept out of context snippets of conversation, ala Beavis and Butthead, and assign their own definitions and meanings in order to smear a political opponent. Meanwhile, they are more than content to look the other way when their political masters are caught lying.

The point is more the pattern than a given quote.

You will note that all you do is repeat over and over the Cerf quote. I never challenged Mr. Gore's contributions. Indeed, I have acknowledged them. That isn't the point.

Why is it so hard to admit that Albert Gore Jr. had a clear pattern of exaggerating to the point that it became part of the public's perception of him, and that, in turn, it no doubt harmed him at the polls? Why is this so painfully difficult to acknowledge. The point isn't whether or not that perception was fair, or that an individual quote can be justified.

And your observation about the Pastrana quote is off the mark--if what you are saying is that hypothetical claim in verifiable. The point is that they are all verifiable--which is true of Gore's statements as well.

And you keep missing the point, Steven: Gore's so-called tendency to exaggerate was wholly created by GOP campaign strategists. BTW, these same folks are using the same strategy against the 2024 Dem frontrunners seeking the nomination. The real question, Steven, is why a Poli Sci Asst. Prof. would be advocating a FreeRepublic-style of political analysis?

And what other choice do conservatives have? Surely, they're not going to be able to run on their record(s)--so, they have to resort to claiming liberals are lying.

Your Pastrana story demonstrated that even a pretty subjective and innocent claim can be verified. If Pastrana were to say he remembers you or has some kind of relationship with you--it's pretty hard evidence your claim is accurate.

All of your other examples could be similarly verified.

the man who is considered to be the "father" of the internet, Vinton Cerf, has endorsed Gore's comments on the subject

I think the point has been well made that the people who support Gore will back him devoid all fact, reason or logic.

The fact that Mr. Cerf may be in that number proves nothing.

2 people sharing the same delusion do not make it a reality.

Mr. Cerf is a well known liberal activist... Did you expect him to take Bush's side?

Paul

Just got back from Vietnam. I spent a lot of time talking things out with my Med fly companion. I told him you said that you “don't recall Jerry Brown or Dukakis or Bentsen, or Mondale or whomever” acting as deceitful as Al Gore. “Do they all engage in some exaggeration?” you asked. “Is the sky a segmented blue” Mr. Med Fly said and reminded me that Brown flip-flopped in regard to pesticide spraying during his tenure as Governor of California. "If that genocidal freak’s environmental record isn’t an exaggeration I don’t know what is,” Fly said.

We went over a host of other reasons not to take Brown’s word seriously, but instead of picking on Governor Moonbeam let’s move on. Turns out that in 1969 Walter Mondale did a flip-flop on his Viet policy. What a deceitful man he was. And wasn’t it Dukakis who made claims about his squeaky-clean environmental record in Massachusetts. And wasn’t it Papa Bush who held a press conference at the shore of dirty waters at Boston Harbor? QUEL EXAGGERATION!

You’re right. I guess Al Gore is an exception.

But enough of this partisan stuff. I’m a registered Democrat, so I’m prone to delusion. Let’s get back to defending that King of Exaggeration Al Gore. I’ll do it with a question. Seriously. I want to get somewhere in this discussion. Here it is: Do you know anyone who at any point in time believed, or still believes, that Al Gore invented the internet?

I ask this as a question of communication, not as a question of political dogma. I think it points to what we extract from context in political campaigns—the context of the moment, the context of the words, the context of the arena.

Now some of you will undoubtedly say that’s not the point . “Al Gore said that he invented the Internet and everything else is irrelevant.” You may be right. But even so, for the sake of my poor delusional soul, please answer me thoughtfully, if not sarcastically. Do you know anyone who at any point in time believed, or still believes, that Al Gore invented the Internet?

Paul, I was unaware as to Mr. Cerf's political preferences. In searching it out (and it wasn't that apparent), I found many IT CEOs and big names supported Gore in 2024.

But your objection is just a canard; the fact remains 2 guys, Vint Cerf and Bob Kahn, are widely recognized as the 'fathers' of the internet.

Here's what Cisco Systems says about him:

"Vinton G. Cerf is senior vice president of Architecture and Technology for WorldCom. Cerf's team of architects and engineers design advanced networking frameworks including Internet-based solutions for delivering a combination of data, information, voice and video services for business and consumer use.

Widely known as one of the "Fathers of the Internet," Cerf is the co-designer of the TCP/IP protocols and the architecture of the Internet. In December 1997, President Clinton presented the U.S. National Medal of Technology to Cerf and his partner, Robert E. Kahn, for founding and developing the Internet.

Prior to rejoining MCI in 1994, Cerf was vice president of the Corporation for National Research Initiatives (CNRI). As vice president of MCI Digital Information Services from 1982-1986, he led the engineering of MCI Mail, the first commercial email service to be connected to the Internet.

During his tenure from 1976-1982 with the U.S. Department of Defense's Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA), Cerf played a key role leading the development of Internet and Internet-related data packet and security technologies.

Vint Cerf serves as chairman of the board of the Internet Corporation for Assigned Names and Numbers (ICANN). Cerf served as founding president of the Internet Society from 1992-1995 and in 1999 served a term as chairman of the Board."

There's more, but you get the drift.

For your smear to be true, you have to assume Cerf is lying and taking one for the team. Are you saying that, Paul?

Ummmm well, I guess ... Yeah!

Clearly Mr. Cerf, more than ANYONE, knows the Gore is full of shit.

Yet when he was asked abotu Gore's quote, he dodged the question TWICE during the interview before he said something to the effect "Well, I don't see how Mr. Gore's opponents can call him a liar." That is HARDLY agreeing that Gore invented the internet.

(I forget the exact quote, google is your friend.)

But you are grasping at a whacky straw anyway. CLEARLY from your own quote above Gore did not invent the interent. You just proved Gore a liar.

You can read that and STILL say Gore invented the internet!

You are suffering under a delusion and trying to convince me.

Steven keeps referring to the PATTERN of deception.
You keep trying to say that Gore's reputaion is a creation of the republicans, that he told the truth is each and every case.

The problem with your theory is that you can not prove it in a SINGLE case much less explain them all away.

You just posted material proving Gore did not invent the internet THEN you say he did. You disagree with your own data.

You can stop arguing with me now, you have to look in the mirror and convince yourself.

seeya

Paul

And now you know why I call Goreism a religion.

Google is indeed a friend, Paul, and there is no shortage of commentary from Vint Cerf on this matter despite your implications that Cerf grudgingly gave a half-hearted endorsement of Gore's comments.

Here's an email from Cerf (http://www.politechbot.com/p-01394.html), which reads:

"I am taking the liberty of sending to you both a brief
summary of Al Gore's Internet involvement, prepared by
Bob Kahn and me. As you know, there have been a seemingly
unending series of jokes chiding the vice president for
his assertion that he "took the initiative in creating
the Internet."

Bob and I believe that the vice president deserves significant
credit for his early recognition of the importance of what has
become the Internet.

I thought you might find this short summary of sufficient
interest to share it with Politech and the IP lists, respectively.

==============================================================

Al Gore and the Internet

By Robert Kahn and Vinton Cerf
Al Gore was the first political leader to recognize the importance of the Internet and to promote and support its development.

No one person or even small group of persons exclusively “invented” the Internet. It is the result of many years of ongoing collaboration among people in government and the university community. But as the two people who designed the basic architecture and the core protocols that make the Internet work, we would like to acknowledge VP Gore’s contributions as a Congressman, Senator and as Vice President. No other elected official, to our knowledge, has made a greater contribution over a longer period of time.

Last year the Vice President made a straightforward statement on his role. He said: “During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the Internet.” We don’t think, as some people have argued, that Gore intended to claim he “invented” the Internet. Moreover, there is no question in our minds that while serving as Senator, Gore’s initiatives had a significant and beneficial effect on the still-evolving Internet. The fact of the matter is that Gore was talking about and promoting the Internet long before most people were listening. We feel it is timely to offer our perspective.

As far back as the 1970s Congressman Gore promoted the idea of high speed telecommunications as an engine for both economic growth and the improvement of our educational system. He was the first elected official to grasp the potential of computer communications to have a broader impact than just improving the conduct of science and scholarship. Though easily forgotten, now, at the time this was an unproven and controversial concept. Our work on the Internet started in 1973 and was based on even earlier work that took place in the mid-late 1960s. But the Internet, as we know it today, was not deployed until 1983. When the Internet was still in the early stages of its deployment, Congressman Gore provided intellectual leadership by helping create the vision of the potential benefits of high speed computing and communication. As an example, he sponsored hearings on how advanced technologies might be put to use in areas like coordinating the response of government agencies to !
!
!
natu
ral disasters and other crises.

As a Senator in the 1980s Gore urged government agencies to consolidate what at the time were several dozen different and unconnected networks into an “Interagency Network.” Working in a bi-partisan manner with officials in Ronald Reagan and George Bush’s administrations, Gore secured the passage of the High Performance Computing and Communications Act in 1991. This “Gore Act” supported the National Research and Education Network (NREN) initiative that became one of the major vehicles for the spread of the Internet beyond the field of computer science.

As Vice President Gore promoted building the Internet both up and out, as well as releasing the Internet from the control of the government agencies that spawned it. He served as the major administration proponent for continued investment in advanced computing and networking and private sector initiatives such as Net Day. He was and is a strong proponent of extending access to the network to schools and libraries. Today, approximately 95% of our nation’s schools are on the Internet. Gore provided much-needed political support for the speedy privatization of the Internet when the time arrived for it to become a commercially-driven operation.

There are many factors that have contributed to the Internet’s rapid growth since the later 1980s, not the least of which has been political support for its privatization and continued support for research in advanced networking technology. No one in public life has been more intellectually engaged in helping to create the climate for a thriving Internet than the Vice President. Gore has been a clear champion of this effort, both in the councils of government and with the public at large.

The Vice President deserves credit for his early recognition of the value of high speed computing and communication and for his long-term and consistent articulation of the potential value of the Internet to American citizens and industry and, indeed, to the rest of the world."

As for religion, Paul, we're not the folks whoo believe every ill can be addressed by placing ostentatious monuments to the 10 Commandments everywhere.

Actually, the aforementioned e-mail, while certainly not intended to be so by Cerf, is again clear evidence of Gore's "exaggerations". It does not vindicate Gore at all. Cerf basically admits that Gore exaggerated the truth. This point is beyond debate.

"“During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the Internet.” We don’t think, as some people have argued, that Gore intended to claim he “invented” the Internet."

Clearly, Al Gore didn't create anything related to the internet. Cerf may choose to believe that Gore was sincere. However, "WE DON"T THINK..." is hardly a rock-solid statement of support. It necessarily implies "...but we may be wrong." And yes, it is certainly reasonable to believe that Cerf is trying to give Gore political cover. However, his effort falls far short. By giving us Gore's exact words himself, Cerf exposes Gore as the liar he really is.

I don't know if this qualifies as "exxageration"...it's more along the lines of shameless hypocrisy and dishonesty. Gore's hypocrisy over tobacco. The quote comes from The Washington Times, but you can find it all over the place. And most people my age remember the video clip of him making the speech in N. Carolina in '88, four years after his sister's death. What a scumbag.

"At the Democratic convention the year before, Mr. Gore offered a radically different view of the tobacco industry from that of his new message czar. Mr. Gore held the tobacco industry responsible for the death of his older sister, who died of lung cancer in 1984, 20 years after the Surgeon General established the link between smoking and cancer. "Three thousand young people in America will start smoking tomorrow. One thousand of them will die a death not unlike my sister's," the vice president inveighed. "And that is why until I draw my last breath, I will pour my heart and soul into the cause of protecting our children from the dangers of smoking. And that is also why I was intensely proud last week when President Clinton stood up for American families by standing up to tobacco advertising aimed at getting our children addicted."
Of course, it wasn't the first time Mr. Gore has displayed his seemingly limitless hypocrisy over tobacco. In his campaign for the presidency in 1988, Mr. Gore breathlessly bragged to North Carolina primary voters about his own experience with the deadly weed: "Throughout most of my life, I raised tobacco. I want you to know that with my own hands I put in the plant beds and transferred it! I've hoed it! I've chopped it! I've shredded it, spiked it, put it in the barn and stripped it and sold it!" For his Senate campaign in 1990, six years after his sister's death, Mr. Gore gratefully accepted campaign contributions from the political action committees of Philip Morris, Brown and Williams Tobacco Corp., RJR/Nabisco and the Smokeless Tobacco Council. And the vice president acknowledges that for several years after his sister died he continued to cash annual checks from the proceeds of his family's tobacco farm."

The tobacco thing came to mind as well, as I vividly recall both sound bites. It didn't quite fit the other pattern, but does fit into a general honesty/believability category.

Robert demonstrates he can't read. Let me guess--Troy State alum?

As I'm fond of noting, Gore didn't claim to having invented the internet. And as Cerf notes, the creation of the 'net extends far beyond 1 or 2 or even a small group of people.

And it isn't in dispute that Gore was an integral part of the development and growth of the 'net on the legislative side of things.

Plainly, it must irk conservatives no end that Gore was truly a pioneer in a technology which has and will continue to transform our society and nation. Especially, given the fact Dubya's claim to fame during this period of Gore's achievements consisted of being a world-class alcoholic for the past 20-25 years.

A) Vituperation is not argumentation.

B) I have seen no one in this debate attempt to detract from Gore's achievements in this area.

C) The issue is a pattern, which you are ignoring.

D) The issue is semantic, granted, but "creating" is a pretty strong word. And you yourself point out that Cerf contradicts that idea, by saying that "the creation of the net extends far beyond 1 or 2 or even a small group." That statement erodes your argument.

E) To retiterate: examining a single statement isn't the issue. The statement would not have been a big deal if there wasn't an existing context in which to put it. Why is that part of this discussion so difficult to grasp?

Jade arguing with a zealot can be tiresome.

"He said: “During my service in the United States Congress I took the initiative in creating the Internet.” We don’t think, as some people have argued, that Gore intended to claim he “invented” the Internet"

You have just proven that Gore lied and they covered for him.

Congratulations.