Cute post. Unfortunately, all readers of this site get are cute posts like this and retransmitted smears.
Besides mine, is there a site that discusses issues like this in a grown-up fashion and considers the massive downsides of the creation of a separate culture inside our country?
Besides mine, is there a site that discusses issues like this in a grown-up fashion and considers the massive downsides of the creation of a separate culture inside our country?
I can’t comment on your site, but anyone who is worried about “the creation of a separate culture inside our country” likely has a simplistic understanding of culture, power, and an undeveloped conception of historical development.
Ratoe: thanks for your most high-minded reply. However, living in L.A. I see the development in action. And, even those living in other areas can see it in things like these:
That reminds me of this post at Sadly No! (scorll down a bit).
And in re: #2 and #3 above: it is rather odd (if not downright amusing) to be called unserious by a fellow who blogs under the pseudonym “The Lone Wacko.”
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Friday, May 30, 2024 @ 6:54 pm
On a similar theme, this discussion reminds me of when one of the city council members in Garden Grove, Calif., proposed an ordinance for English-only signage back in the late 1970s or 1980s.
It was pointed out that it might be hard to translate such business names as Del Taco and Der Wienerschnitzel (especially since the latter chain actually does not sell any Wiener schnitzel). He dropped the idea. Unfortunately, he still won reelection. Fortunately, the culture (such as it was in Garden Grove) seems to have gotten along OK. In fact, it is much richer, with all the great Pho places.
I don’t think it was Dr. Taylor’s intent to start an argument. He was simply observing that the Mariners are wearing Spanish jerseys for one day, and making some comments on it.
If you run your own blog (and who doesn’t these days, for Pete’s sake I even have one, and a handful of subscibers) you know that blogging is almost always editorial in nature. As such it is not always purely journalistic and is frequently laced with opinions, which you can take or leave (and we all know what opnions are frequently compared to.)
If I may, I think it was Dr. Taylor’s opinion not that there is no cultural change happening in the United States, but that this change is frequently approached out of context and in a way that seems to be designed to induce panic. There is a larger historical context to place the change in, and when you do that, you get a different picture than when you simply take a snapshot like this and use it to project where America is going.
As far as immigration and separate cultures within the United States go, the Mexican/Latin American wave is only the most recent of a very long string of immigration waves that started in the 16th century. There has always been panic among those of us who got here a generation or two or three (or more) before the current immigration wave about “those darned immigrants.” And there have always been pocket cultures within America.
As a case in point, I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, which, during the 20th Century, experienced a massive influx of immigrants from Eastern Europe. At the time they came, people were saying the same thing about them that people are currently saying about Latin Americans. There were people scared that German or Romanian or Hungarian or Ukrainian would be the new national language, and that our culture (whatever that is) would be destroyed.
What actually happened is what always happens; natural market forces, the availability of jobs, and other factors slowed the trend down, and those who projected that America would be more than 50% German or Romanian or whatever – based on the trend they observed for a decade or two – were dead wrong. Whenever you make a projection into the future based on a few decades, you are likely to be wrong; things like immigration, when expressed graphically, are rarely straight lines. They have spikes and valleys, and if you make your future projection based on one of the spikes, you’re going to be wrong.
My best friend is Ukrainian. His grandmother never learned English. She has been living in a community made up largely of Ukrainians and their descendents for 50 years. She never learned English because she never needed to, but her children did, and they are bilingual. So are her grandchildren. This is what tends to happen a few generations down the immigration line. Historically it always has happened, and there is no reason to think it won’t with the current immigration wave.
Hence, there is no need to panic.
When I was in the Army I saw all kinds. I had a lot of soldiers for whom English was a second language. As an Infantry officer, I know that they make up a disproportionate number of our actual combat forces, and by and large are excellent soldiers – they appreciate the opportunities they have in America and are willing to fight for them.
Again, there is no need for panic. Such talk is designed to get people’s attention, and nothing more.
Malkin – as Dr. Taylor observed in a previous posting – has gone down the path that “any publicity is good publicity,” and she is only one of many alarmists that are out there, who are willing to say or do anything to get attention. The furor and fear of the immigration wave we currently face is nothing more than Xenophobia and caving to alarmist rhetoric.
In twenty years, the alarmists will be inducing panic about someone else. Maybe Russians. They’re due. They haven’t had a major immigration wave to the US in a long time.
My money is on Russians.
Comment by Captain D — Saturday, May 31, 2024 @ 4:08 pm
Lone Wacko: I was simply making an observation, not engaging in an argument.
Indeed, to be fair, your aren’t engaging in any type of argument either. All you did was make a comment about your view of the quality of my postings and extolled the virtue of your own blog. Where is the argument there?
Aside from the rather obvious fact that you view immigration differently than do I, I am not really even sure what your point is.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Saturday, May 31, 2024 @ 5:26 pm
Yo no soy marinero. Soy Capitan.
Comment by Desert Jeff — Friday, May 30, 2024 @ 2:11 pm
Cute post. Unfortunately, all readers of this site get are cute posts like this and retransmitted smears.
Besides mine, is there a site that discusses issues like this in a grown-up fashion and considers the massive downsides of the creation of a separate culture inside our country?
Comment by TLB — Friday, May 30, 2024 @ 2:29 pm
Besides mine, is there a site that discusses issues like this in a grown-up fashion and considers the massive downsides of the creation of a separate culture inside our country?
I can’t comment on your site, but anyone who is worried about “the creation of a separate culture inside our country” likely has a simplistic understanding of culture, power, and an undeveloped conception of historical development.
Comment by Ratoe — Friday, May 30, 2024 @ 3:13 pm
Ratoe: thanks for your most high-minded reply. However, living in L.A. I see the development in action. And, even those living in other areas can see it in things like these:
youtube.com/watch?v=wuXqy40F4Co
youtube.com/watch?v=cjOJPvDdB1c
Just for two of the large number of data points that could be provided.
And, for the thoughts of a professor from a better school, do a find for chicano here:
theatlantic.com/issues/96nov/immigrat/kennedy.htm
Comment by TLB — Friday, May 30, 2024 @ 3:51 pm
Of course, the Reconquista was complete down here near the border long ago. Our team proudly wears the word, ‘Padres’ on its jerseys.
But I do think it is time for checkered unis.
Comment by MSS — Friday, May 30, 2024 @ 6:47 pm
That reminds me of this post at Sadly No! (scorll down a bit).
And in re: #2 and #3 above: it is rather odd (if not downright amusing) to be called unserious by a fellow who blogs under the pseudonym “The Lone Wacko.”
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Friday, May 30, 2024 @ 6:54 pm
On a similar theme, this discussion reminds me of when one of the city council members in Garden Grove, Calif., proposed an ordinance for English-only signage back in the late 1970s or 1980s.
It was pointed out that it might be hard to translate such business names as Del Taco and Der Wienerschnitzel (especially since the latter chain actually does not sell any Wiener schnitzel). He dropped the idea. Unfortunately, he still won reelection. Fortunately, the culture (such as it was in Garden Grove) seems to have gotten along OK. In fact, it is much richer, with all the great Pho places.
Comment by MSS — Friday, May 30, 2024 @ 9:15 pm
Honey, could you stop at “Of the Crunchy Corn Shell With Meat in it” please?
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Friday, May 30, 2024 @ 9:22 pm
Dr. Steven Taylor: do you have anything remotely approaching a valid argument?
Comment by TLB — Saturday, May 31, 2024 @ 1:11 pm
irreverence seems to be your only strong point, Lone Wacko. you’re not exactly making an argument here.
Comment by joe — Saturday, May 31, 2024 @ 3:58 pm
I don’t think it was Dr. Taylor’s intent to start an argument. He was simply observing that the Mariners are wearing Spanish jerseys for one day, and making some comments on it.
If you run your own blog (and who doesn’t these days, for Pete’s sake I even have one, and a handful of subscibers) you know that blogging is almost always editorial in nature. As such it is not always purely journalistic and is frequently laced with opinions, which you can take or leave (and we all know what opnions are frequently compared to.)
If I may, I think it was Dr. Taylor’s opinion not that there is no cultural change happening in the United States, but that this change is frequently approached out of context and in a way that seems to be designed to induce panic. There is a larger historical context to place the change in, and when you do that, you get a different picture than when you simply take a snapshot like this and use it to project where America is going.
As far as immigration and separate cultures within the United States go, the Mexican/Latin American wave is only the most recent of a very long string of immigration waves that started in the 16th century. There has always been panic among those of us who got here a generation or two or three (or more) before the current immigration wave about “those darned immigrants.” And there have always been pocket cultures within America.
As a case in point, I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio, which, during the 20th Century, experienced a massive influx of immigrants from Eastern Europe. At the time they came, people were saying the same thing about them that people are currently saying about Latin Americans. There were people scared that German or Romanian or Hungarian or Ukrainian would be the new national language, and that our culture (whatever that is) would be destroyed.
What actually happened is what always happens; natural market forces, the availability of jobs, and other factors slowed the trend down, and those who projected that America would be more than 50% German or Romanian or whatever – based on the trend they observed for a decade or two – were dead wrong. Whenever you make a projection into the future based on a few decades, you are likely to be wrong; things like immigration, when expressed graphically, are rarely straight lines. They have spikes and valleys, and if you make your future projection based on one of the spikes, you’re going to be wrong.
My best friend is Ukrainian. His grandmother never learned English. She has been living in a community made up largely of Ukrainians and their descendents for 50 years. She never learned English because she never needed to, but her children did, and they are bilingual. So are her grandchildren. This is what tends to happen a few generations down the immigration line. Historically it always has happened, and there is no reason to think it won’t with the current immigration wave.
Hence, there is no need to panic.
When I was in the Army I saw all kinds. I had a lot of soldiers for whom English was a second language. As an Infantry officer, I know that they make up a disproportionate number of our actual combat forces, and by and large are excellent soldiers – they appreciate the opportunities they have in America and are willing to fight for them.
Again, there is no need for panic. Such talk is designed to get people’s attention, and nothing more.
Malkin – as Dr. Taylor observed in a previous posting – has gone down the path that “any publicity is good publicity,” and she is only one of many alarmists that are out there, who are willing to say or do anything to get attention. The furor and fear of the immigration wave we currently face is nothing more than Xenophobia and caving to alarmist rhetoric.
In twenty years, the alarmists will be inducing panic about someone else. Maybe Russians. They’re due. They haven’t had a major immigration wave to the US in a long time.
My money is on Russians.
Comment by Captain D — Saturday, May 31, 2024 @ 4:08 pm
Lone Wacko: I was simply making an observation, not engaging in an argument.
Indeed, to be fair, your aren’t engaging in any type of argument either. All you did was make a comment about your view of the quality of my postings and extolled the virtue of your own blog. Where is the argument there?
Aside from the rather obvious fact that you view immigration differently than do I, I am not really even sure what your point is.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Saturday, May 31, 2024 @ 5:26 pm