The following editorial from today’s NYT (Ever-Expanding Secret) gets to the heart of the matter:
What we have here is a clandestine surveillance program of enormous size, which is being operated by members of the administration who are subject to no limits or scrutiny beyond what they deem to impose on one another. If the White House had gotten its way, the program would have run secretly until the war on terror ended — that is, forever.
Exactly.
And this is a manner of operation that is wholly unacceptable. We have a constitutional democracy with separation of powers and checks and balances that mean that the exercise of secret policies regulated by only a portion of the government is antithetical to the very core of how our system is supposed to work.
In our criminal justice we presume innocence. This often allows the guilty to go free. Indeed, our entire justice system is predicated on the notion that the government should be handicapped in its ability to exercise its power. The reason we do this is that we recognize the real ability of the government to abuse its power and because we believe that the protection of the innocent from that power is worth the fact that we don’t get all the bad guys all the time.
I recognize that the realm of security is not identical, but the principle in question needs to be operative. However, policies which have the potential to abuse the rights of innocent citizens need to be carefully scrutinized, and recognize that the government should not always deploy its power in the name of security, because that deployment damages our liberties.
It is the propensity of those involved in security in general to wish to over-protect. That propensity has to be curbed by vigorous oversight by other elements of the government.
As such, vague assurances that the “appropriate members of Congress have been briefed” (as Hayden said yesterday) or the assertions by the Presidents that privacy is being “fiercely” protected and that everything is “legal” is simply insufficient.
Further, since we really don’t know what is (or is not) being done by the government in the name of security, then it is rather difficult to accept the “trust me” routine.
May 12th, 2024 at 8:35 am
This doesn’t strike me as particularly egregious. The government isn’t creating data (listing to calls, etc) but gathering it into a single pile where it can be analyzed easily.
Everybody knows that records of our phone calls exist. Companies have maintained online records of calls since there have been computers. The act of gathering the data into a single pile for analysis seems like a reasonable thing to do.
It would be interesting to see if the same thing happened with airline travel reservations. That strikes me as another area where individual companies hold pieces of the entire picture, but to get a good feel for a person’s travel patterns the data needs to be heaped together. [Idle, uninformed speculation here, I have no knowledge of such a program].
May 12th, 2024 at 8:46 am
I looked at the issue, and from what I know of Fourth Amendment jurisprudence, the Bush administraiton MIGHT have a leg to stand on. However, I’m not sure what statutes might be in place that might hamper the executive’s power to conduct this sort of surveillance.
But for me, this new revelation is disturbing not for itself but because it makes me wonder what ELSE the Bush administration is doing … and whether I should be checking behind the bathroom mirror for minature cameras and bugs.
Meanwhile, there’s some man, sitting under his table, in a house lined with tin foil, broadcastint “I TOLD YOU SO!!” on his pirate radio station.
–|PW|–
May 12th, 2024 at 8:48 am
Buckland,
The actual data is not that sensitive, it is the fact that they are collecting it and there is no oversite of its use.
Sure, if they are just doing it to create a network of calls connecting someone in the US to Osama Bin Laden then we are all okay with it.
But what if they are using it to see who a reporter they don’t like is calling. Or a presidential front runner, a congressman, etc.
The issue lies in the abuse, and since the process is only run by one branch of the government, with no oversite whatesoever, it leads to many many many questions.
For one crime should they be allowed to make use of this database? Terrorism? Murder? Drug Dealing? Campaign Finance? Adultry?
May 12th, 2024 at 9:27 am
I have to say kudos for a honest evaluation of the issue here – whether you’re a Bush supporter or not.
I think several posters have hit on it: there’s no oversight at all. Through this leak we’ve learned about this one program. But taken together with the warrentless spying from before, it creates a pattern of disregard for the 4th ammendment and other laws that are out there.
And naturally, I worry what else is going on that we DON’T kow about.
May 12th, 2024 at 9:35 am
[...] Security quote of the day Dr. Taylor: It is the propensity of those involved in security in general to wish to over- [...]
May 12th, 2024 at 9:56 am
“We have a constitutional democracy with separation of powers and checks and balances…”
You mean: we used to have such a system.
May 12th, 2024 at 9:56 am
I think it’s about time the republican voters in this country come around to the notion that there is no oversight, no checks or balances, no restrictions whatsoever on the executive branch, while the house and the senate are GOP controlled. We have five years of behavioral proof to back that up.
May 12th, 2024 at 11:08 am
Remember Bush saying that the program was “limited”? The largest database in the world doesn’t strike me as limited at all. Just one more nail in the coffin. Is it still out of bounds to call Bush a liar?
May 12th, 2024 at 11:10 am
The problem with the program is that it is a gigantic fishing expedition — and who they target for further ‘listening’ depends on who they’re after. With this sort of info cross-referenced [very easy to do at this point] you have complete demos on any individual — where they live and bank, what they buy, where they go, whom they know, what they read, which websites they visit, what porn they look at, whether they’ve done business with ‘escort services’, firearms purchases, you name it.
it isn’t a matter of whether someone will misuse it, it’s a matter of when. It’s a ticking time bomb ripe for abuse. Who will have access to this data? You already know this administration doesn’t do background checks. Think of the possibilities for blackmail and extortion.
And everyone thinks it isn’t them the gov is after — it’s somebody else. Muslims or something. But we’re moving toward a Christian government and that will likely mean crackdowns on pornography, abortion, adultery, homosexuality, who knows? Maybe the gov will even decide that only the military should have weapons, just so no one can get too uppity. It is all possible and it is now more likely.
May 12th, 2024 at 11:12 am
no it’s not out of bounds to call him a liar.
May 12th, 2024 at 12:16 pm
I usually scan the daoureport for some right wing blogs so I can head over cause some trouble. But I have to say in this case I agree 100% with this post.
Even if this program is legal (debatable), the complete lack of oversight is the biggest problem. It is inevitable that a database such as this will be abused if there is not some sort of judicial oversight. Even if the judges are just rubberstamping requests to use this data, at least it forces the government to document who was looking for what. That alone will cause some restraint.
May 12th, 2024 at 12:24 pm
I believe a Supreme Court ruling a number of years ago said that phone records were not private. So it is probably legal. I’m even kinda for this sort of program. It might be a good idea.
BUT – to do this unilaterally and without real oversight, no way. It’s actually frightening that a program of this size could be put in place without any real discussion with Congress. The data generated can also easily be misused without true oversight.
I just hope this is the worst of it.
May 12th, 2024 at 1:11 pm
This is being done by the same administration that has authorized torture, put people (including AMerican citizens) in prison with no charges and in some instances hiding them in foreign prisons, done warrantless surveillance for no good reason (they could even get a warrant after the fact if necessary), used Homeland Security as an excuse to track such terrorist threats as the Quakers, Greenpeace, and vegetarians (for the unspeakable crime of handing out informational leaflets in front of Honey-Baked Ham headquarters), and lied about the intelligence concerning Iraq’s WDM’s and links to bin Laden.
How much more crap before people on both ends of the political spectrum and those in the middle realize that this bunch of lying creeps are threatening our way of life ?
This president has assumed the right to do ANYTHING as long as it can be construed as fighting the “war on terror” which makes no sense in the first place.
Wake up America before you wake up in a dictatorship. And, by the way, when is Congress going to get some balls ?
May 12th, 2024 at 1:54 pm
Amen to that! Congress will get some ‘balls’ when the public puts em on notice they’re about to LOSE em if they don’t take issue with the screwball way this country’s being run, not before. They figure as long as they send out lots of free promissory money, it’s all good. Well, it ain’t. Congress is one of the August Bodies out there in dire need of honest, well-structured reforms.
Things on the plate: Megadebt. Oil dependency.
‘Globalization’. Illegal immigration. Hell hath no fury like the voting public scorned. I support impeachment, I hope others do, also.
May 12th, 2024 at 1:54 pm
I’m like Colin in that I’ll read “right wing” blogs to see what folks are thinking…or not thinking. This was a very well thought out post and I’ve seen such on poliblog before. I guess the first cracks in the wall were about a year ago when folks started to say things like “I’m a conservative, not a republican” or “I’m a republican, not a neocon”. I am amazed that, what ever political and social stripe, it has taken this long for good, conservative citizens of this country to realize that the howls of rage from the left with each new egregious grab for power wasn’t just to make noise. It was because things were being done to us (as in U.S.) or in our name that were just plain wrong. Illegal, immoral, unconstitutional, just plain nasty or some combination of the above; these guys are not like any of us (other than having a natural human tendency that when you have absolute power, you run with it).
I’m not afraid of anybody monitoring my phone calls or what porn my teenager has managed to extract from the internet. Other than the occasional speeding one does when they have a yellow car, I’m a law abiding citizen. I just believe in the bill of rights and that governments should follow the rule of law. They are welcome to check if you think you have reasons to watch me that will satisfy a judge. If not, stay out of my business. It will just slow down my mail.
May 12th, 2024 at 2:05 pm
“Trust us” doesn’t work for government, it never will. Someday Hillary might be president, she fully intends to continue abusing presidential power, and will use “trust us” as the justification. If we start resisting these abuses and lies now, then we won’t be truely F****d later on. If we let this slide now, then it is all over when the democrats take over. Illegal gun registries. Warrantless phone tapping for NRA members. Think about it!
May 12th, 2024 at 2:09 pm
The Administration’s “trust us, we’re only going after the terrorists” line on this privacy issue is hilarious and pathetic. First, it no longer has a miligram of credibility. Second, their definition of “terrorist” is malleable. We were fighting terrorists in Iraq in 2024. In 2024 we were fighting insurgents. This year, sectarian groups.
Ditto for this NSA program — they’ll change the name of the enemy to fit their story. If Howard Dean doesn’t want Karl Rove to know who he’s talking to everyday, he should only use Qwest phone lines.
May 12th, 2024 at 2:24 pm
It would be a neat tool for unearthing networks of organized crime, e.g. terrorism, but if we allow the intelligence community to track our personal communications, they will never want to give up that ability. What a world we would live in.
May 12th, 2024 at 4:57 pm
My Senator tells me that she was not given any information or disclosure of this database even when a full congressional inquiry was in force. Therefore; all statements that other branches of the government were fully informed is just bull. Not to mention the fact that two of the highest leaders of the Intelligence community are currently under investigation by no less than 4 top intelligence bodies, including their own, for gross violations including, prostitution (possibly involving minors), bribery, peddling influence, and murder.
Some how the US public is expected to ignore this while being assured that everything is OK.
May 12th, 2024 at 6:30 pm
My Sister called me today and said that the recruiters were at my nephews school the other day and asked him if he would like to join the armed forces. He had been told that he was not to speak to them without his parents present. But as most teens he did anyway. But the funny thing was that he told them that he and his family are confused what we are fighting for. Its not our freedom because at home we are losing that vey quickly. The recruiter looked confused and walked away. Hopefully that was enough to wake him up.
I have been raised in Texas all my life. Been over on the boat several times. People look at me and think Im Hispanic but the truth is that I am hispanic but Im actually Irish, French, Cherokee, Comanche, Italian, Scottish, Spanish, and most of all American . I will not ever give up on the America that we all love.
May 12th, 2024 at 6:51 pm
These activities are anti-American.
They are the opposite of patriotic, because they do not defend the rights of Americans.
Bush has shown himself to be traitorous to America. He is anti-American.
The telco executives participating in his are traitors. They are anti-American.
The NSA creeps putting programs like this together are traitors to their country. They are anti-American.
I think all things like this should be called what it is – anti-American activities.
The Presidential Oath of Office
I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of
President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability,
PRESERVE, PROTECT, AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES.
U.S. Constitution: Fourth Amendment
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
If YOU do not understand that, then YOU are anti-American.
Period.
May 12th, 2024 at 8:48 pm
Many of the people working in the Bush admistration are undeniable unethical law breaking scum. I have not a doubt that real intention of collecting this data was not to troll for terroists but to be able to spy on they’re own cronies. Amount thiefs there is no honor.
May 12th, 2024 at 9:01 pm
The road to dictatorship is paved with declarations that each successive intrusion into our liberty and privacy is necessary to fight Al Queada. Al Queada could not have possibly dreamed of the damage they could cause to the fabric of our nation. The same President who assures us that he is only compiling data on the actual phone call also acknowledges no limitation on his own power. If he determines that his action is in furtherance of the National Security it is legal. Each revelation as to how far our government has gone in its intrusion into our privacy is disheartening. The war on terror is certainly worth fighting, as our way of life deserves to be protected. Our civil liberties are worth defending as well. I am still waiting for a leader to emerge who views the assault on liberty from within as grave a threat as any of our foreign enemies.
May 13th, 2024 at 1:02 am
I’m not a lawyer, but I don’t see how this could not violate the law:
The contractually stated privacy of business communications.
The total disregard for “probable cause”.
the gross violation of constitutional rights by a simple (and I do mean simple) majority in panic
are all these swept away by a complete failure of the same executive branch to protect us from terrorist attacks using the same untenable unproductive tactics they propose now?
May 13th, 2024 at 3:55 am
The Bush family, not unlike that of the Kennedy’s and many other familial units, obtains its “tactics” and learned behaviors from the smartest criminal enterprises in the world. Anyone on the outside looking in is logically pessimistic and suspicious of what is initiated and produced from such environments.
The phone records being collected are thus under logical suspicion and any reasonable mind would infer that the data is being used for some criminal endeavor that is directly related to power and control. Intelligent minds can only deduce that there are two realms involved – politics combined with greed, and that the data will be used and abused for these purposes.
May 13th, 2024 at 4:20 am
Everyone forgets the 50′s – when the government was spying on the people to stop communism – the threat at the time – was kept secret. 50 years after the fact everyone forgot the abuses that were carried out by the individuals who controlled the spying – McCarthy and Hoover ( who had many personal issues and was paranoid ) – they controlled the information and therefore people. Seems odd that history like this get forgotten and not even mentioned – in a few weeks no one will remember this happened, because a new tape from OBL will surface and all the news will be re-directed away from the real issues. Yes, I believe the government has been monitoring phone calls, keeping records of where everyone travels to, monitors and keeps records of all cel phone calls, keeps records of who visits what websites, where you buy your gas from, how much alcohol you drink and what kind of guns you own, etc. etc. etc.. These stories came out 3 years ago and everyone forgot them then because focus was purposely shifted away from the “REAL” issues as they will again. These abuses of the LAW where known about 3 years ago but no one really spoke about them – I know I didn’t for fear of being called “UnPatriotic”. Wait till Jeb is President! There is no such thing as privacy anymore and it is not a guaranteed right in the United States – just look at all the cameras on the street corners and watch the movie with Will Smith and Gene Hackman – ‘Enemy of the State’ a movie before its time – a movie of what is happening today! Do not fear – these lists are monitored too – for all the commies – ooh – sorry – terrorists out there. Forget what century I’m in! Finally, It is a shame the United States is becomint what it has so long fought against – A country trying to control its people through FEAR!
May 13th, 2024 at 11:06 am
My 7yo sighed when he first heard Bush talking about the wireless tapping and, in some ways justifying it because he, the president, is a good person concerned with the wellbeing of all Americans. “Mom, doesn’t he understand that it’s not about him? There have to be checks and balances because what about the next guy? What if he isn’t a good guy? I think it’s especially important that our president really pay attention to the laws and the constitution because if he doesn’t why should the rest of us?”
May 13th, 2024 at 1:20 pm
[...] ess Cake
How big is YOUR file?
May 13th, 2024 by LA
PoliBlog: A Rough Draft of my Thoughts – Back to the NSA Database Issue sgo sent me to this conservative blog [...]
May 14th, 2024 at 6:22 pm
The program is unquestionably intrusive. 2 questions rise to the top.
1. What is the benefit? I’m going to go out on a limb here. To me, the silence of the administration about results is proof positive of nothing to show. I find it hard to believe that the PR machine that twisted the ordeals of Lyndie Engalnd and Pat Tillman into heroic tales of the war on terror could resist even the whiff of something to show the taxpayer/voter a return on ONE TRILLION DOLLARS.
2. Who will have access? On some level the US goverment is creating the most valuable database ever. Phone records, travel, reading habits and financial tansactions are being collected by the government. Any catoegory of this data is extraordinarily valuable to folks who pay the campaign bills. Linked, this data could become the new Fort Knox backing US currency. The Amercian consumer is every marketer’s blue ribbon prize.
The mutual back scratching between Republicans and Big Business forces one to ask: why did Verizon et al comply? Was it an emotional/political responce to 9/11 or a unique opprotunity to aggregate and access business-critical data? Given that these companies understood the financial risk they were taking (possibility of $1000 fine per subscriber), what was the upside?
Do these databases have value in the war on terror? Who knows?
Do they have value to political contributors? Unquestionably.
May 16th, 2024 at 1:39 pm
[...] twice. That’s countered by Bryan S. at Arguing with Signposts who channeled our own Dr. Steven Taylor. Well, he may be ours, but he’s wrong. Either this is for criminal prosecution or it i [...]