Fox News and a black political group say they will not hold a Sept. 23 Democratic presidential debate in Detroit, which the leading candidates already were planning to skip.
[…]
The campaigns of U.S. Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama and former Sen. John Edwards had said they would not participate in the debate. Opponents have criticized Fox as biased against Democrats.
The debate, co-sponsored by the Congressional Black Caucus Political Education and Leadership Institute, was to have been held at the Fox Theatre.
On the one hand, there have already been a remarkable number of joint press conferences debates, so one less isn’t a big deal.
On the other hand, this kind of move feeds into the polarization of the media and also strikes me as strategically stupid. Yes, shunning the All Evil Fox News will make the netroots and some of the hardcore base of the Democratic Party happy, but in an election cycle wherein there GOP is already suffering in the eyes of the public and where the party’s voters aren’t exactly in love with their choices, it would seem to me that it would behoove the Democrats to cast their net as widely as possible.
Plus, there is just something impetuous about the foot-stomping “we won’t go on that network” routine. Same thing for the GOPers who wanted to bow out of the YouTube debate.
It seems the bigger concern should be that regardless of who the Democratic nominee is, the door is open for the opposition to claim that they lacked the courage to face Brit Hume or Chris Wallace, how will they ever face off with Iran, North Korea, etc. It’s tailor made for a stump speech sound bite that will air on — Fox News.
I first have to say I don’t think Fox News is “All Evil”. I’m also not a member of the “Democratic netroots”, however, you are logically wrong. Fox News is nothing more than a propaganda outlet for the Republican Party. Polls have shown that the most reliably Republican group of voters in the USA are regular watchers of Fox News. They are also shown to be by most polls to be the most ill-informed group as well. Fox News has no business sponsoring a Democratic candidate debate, any more than Air America would host a Republican debate.
Comment by Doug Trabaris — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 10:00 am
The implicit conflation here of You Tube and Fox as part of the same syndrome of “polarization of the media” that some Democratic candidates’ decisions “feeds” really does not stand up to scrutiny.
Who controls the content on Fox?
Now, who controls the content on You Tube?
I fail to see the parallel.
Comment by MSS — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 10:41 am
The parallel in question is not ideology, but that some of the Reps didn’t want to participate because of some perceptions that they had about the content of the questions. I think it is tactically problematic to eschew exposure.
And really, while I fully understand that the editorial content of Fox News is pro-administration, I have a hard time seeing an event co-sponsored by the CBC to be fully controlled by the ideological elements within Fox News.
Ultimately my argument is simple: more exposure is better for the candidates.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 11:00 am
Anyone who engages in cartoon characterizations of what the other side believes doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously. Though my political views are pretty darn liberal, I don’t think Fox news is “All Evil”, nor do I feel that way generally about conservatives and Republicans. Fox News is providing an alternative perspective countering what many feel is a liberal bias in the MSM. That’s not to say I don’t think Fox News is a joke, the transparent hostility toward liberals and Democrats is plain to all except the ultra-conservative and extreme partisan. I’m nearly equally as skeptical of CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, The New York Times, The Washington Post and most all of big corporate-controlled American Media. IMO, televised presidential debates are mostly an opportunity to try and appear presidential while mouthing a lot of empty opinion-polled platitudes.
Comment by R.Mutt — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 11:27 am
I was being flippant, which I will grant is difficult for casual readers to pick up upon.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 12:08 pm
Let’s imagine that George Soros started a “news channel” and hired Hillary Clinton’s campaign manager as his news director, who in turned staffed this “news channel” with nothing but liberal pundits, and the news director circulated memos to his staff that the overarching purpose of this “news channel” was to help democrats get elected and aid the democratic agenda of those already in office. And let’s just imagine that this “news channel” has a history of smearing the republican presidential candidates on a nightly basis. I know, this sounds pretty far-fetched, but bear with me.
And let’s imagine that this “news channel” decided to host a Republican debate, to be moderated by one of its liberal pundits, produced by Hillary Clinton’s campaign manager and the questions to be written by its liberal pundits, and the broadcast to be produced, edited, and promoted by staffers who work under the company directive of aiding the democratic agenda. Plus, any video or transcripts of this debate that would be provided to other media outlets after the debate would be produced, edited and controlled by this “news channel.” And because this “news channel” would be the only media outlet airing this debate, most viewers would be likely to stay tuned to this “news channel’s” post debate analysis, which means that not only the production and direction of the debate itself, but the analysis of that debate which most viewers would get would all come from an unabashadly liberal network.
Now just how eager do you think the Republican candidates would be to participate in this debate?
Comment by Dr. Very Serious Person — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 1:12 pm
You presume that my position is pro-Republican, but that’s not my point.
I would have the same position, especially if the debate was gong to be sponsored by a group that was sympathetic to the Republican Party.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 1:21 pm
Your implied concern for the welfare of the Democratic party is trite beyond words. Of course you think it’d be better for them to debate on Fox News. Would you feel the same if the Republican candidates were invited to debate at an event hosted by, let’s say, Moveon.org?
Providing the GOP’s propagandists with the opportunity to smear Democrats would not seem to be in the best interests of the Democrats, to me.
Comment by Brian — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 3:05 pm
Much of this discussion reinforces the point I made much earlier. The Democrats are creating the perception that they lack the courage of their convictions to even face off a debate moderator they view as hostile. This will not help them, especially since national security has been a perceived weakness for the Dems among voters.
Their best hope is that we are all so tired of these debates that apathy kicks in.
Comment by ts — Saturday, August 25, 2024 @ 9:24 am
“…in an election cycle wherein there GOP is already suffering in the eyes of the public and where the party’s voters aren’t exactly in love with their choices, it would seem to me that it would behoove the Democrats to cast their net as widely as possible”
I fail to see your logic here. If the GOP is suffering in the eyes of the public, shouldn’t the Democrats have to work less hard to get crossover votes?
Comment by 14All — Saturday, August 25, 2024 @ 5:18 pm
It’s called controlling the message. You’re assuming that any exposure is good exposure. There’s nothing to be gained by exposure to the hard core 28%. The only thing that will do will give Fox chances to do whatever it is Fox does.
If they’ve already got more than enough exposure - by your own admission - then the only thing they can get by going on a network that is *actively* arrayed against them is negative exposure.
It’s just simple game theory, eh?
Comment by Hal — Sunday, August 26, 2024 @ 12:49 pm
The thing is, there is no reason to believe that the debate itself would be some sort of right-wing attack. Again, the event was going to be co-sponsored by a part of the Congressional Black Caucus.
Beyond that, what is the real difference between, say Brit Hume asking questions than George Stephanapolous asking the questions?
It isn’t as if people with ideological positions, sometimes positions that rather well known, asking questions at these debates for decades.
I think all of this smacks of paranoia–that somehow they would be attacked if they went on Fox for this kind of event. People are making it out to assume like this was going to some sort of appearance on the O’Reilly Factor.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Sunday, August 26, 2024 @ 4:15 pm
Secrecy surrounding his condition has fuelled rumours about the extent of his health problems and his eventual political future.
However, Cuban officials have repeatedly said he will eventually resume office.
Which, I can’t help but feel, is very Soviet of them.
It does strike me as odd that at this stage of the game, where the quasi-transition from Fidel to Raul has gone quite smoothly, that they continue to insist that Fidel is going to fully recover. Why maintain that public stance? He is clearly too ill to make even a controlled public appearance and the simple fact that he is 81 years of ago suggests that “full recovery” isn’t in the cards, as 81 year-olds often die sans a major illness and surgery, let alone with them.
The part about all of this that strikes me as odd is that they seems to have the opportunity before them to fully ease away from the idea of the Cuban state equaling Fidel, yet they prefer to insist on the notion that he will return.
Perhaps it is simply the habits of a closed political system, or maybe it is Fidel’s own denial manifesting as public statements. In any event, I continue to believe that this lingering illness is perhaps the best thing that could have happened to the regime, as had Fidel suddenly died, there would have been an immediate crisis that would have been far more difficult to manage. As it stands, the illness has given the party leadership the chance to figure out how to proceed and has allowed the Cuban public time to adjust to government without Fidel without having to go through the shock of his death.
[…] Apparently these rumors are are what led to the story I noted yesterday, wherein the Cuban government was officially insisting that Fidel was on the mend and would govern Cuban again in the future. […]
while the ruling party’s candidate, Abdullah Gul, is again expected to win easily, it is thought he will only win outright in a third round next week.
[…]
In the first round of voting on Monday, he secured 341 votes - falling short of the two-thirds majority needed to win outright.
Friday’s vote is expected to follow a similar pattern, with the other two candidates - Sabahattin Cakmakoglu from the right-wing Nationalist Action Party, and Tayfun Icli from the centre-left Democratic Left Party - unlikely to challenge Mr Gul.
However, in a third round, a candidate needs only a simple majority to win - leading analysts to predict confidently that Mr Gul will be declared president next Tuesday, 28 August.
Important additional points here: Gul will win not only because a majority suffices on the third round, but also because other parties sufficient to amount to the required 2/3 quorum on that final vote have agreed they will not boycott the session.
It was their boycott that prevented the election of Gul a couple of months ago and resulted in early elections.
The Republican party, which did poorly in the elections, did not even put up a candidate in these first two rounds. They won’t vote for Gul, but they have shown by their decision not to put up a candidate that they are willing to passively let him become president. The early parliamentary elections were thus the decisive factor here.
(I add these points because they have been either left out or buried deep within the American and British media reports I have seen.)
Comment by MSS — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 10:46 am
Democrats on Tuesday proposed putting on a 2024 ballot an initiative aimed at having California join the movement to elect presidents by popular vote.
[…]
If backers gather sufficient signatures to place one of the Democratic measures on the ballot, and voters were to approve it, California would become one of roughly a dozen states to have embraced the concept of electing presidents by popular vote.
The national drive toward a popular vote would not scrap the electoral college system, but would require states to award their electoral votes to whichever candidate wins the most actual votes nationally. It would take effect only if states representing a majority of the electoral votes agree to the change.
I am still deciding whether I like this idea or not. I would prefer to simply have the whole thing scrapped via a constitutional amendment. Of course, that is rather unlikely to happen. As such this plan, which could be accomplished via the Interstate Compact Clause of Article IV (along with the constitutional fact that states get to decided how the electoral votes from their states are assigned), may be the only way to go if the EC is going to be changed.
I think this is a good idea ONLY if it is done nationwide. Doing this in California would give Republicans an unfair advantage, unless a large Republican leaning state were to do the same thing.
Comment by Brett — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 9:17 am
I agree that a constitutional amendment is preferred, but it will happen only with a push. The compact is the way to push it. Small states will never concede reform in the Senate, unless faced with an altered status quo.
That is, the NPV compact, once enacted, would mean nationwide plurality. Clearly an instant (or two-round) runoff is to be preferred over plurality. Once NPV is on the verge of enactment, you’ll see debate on how to amend the constitution to produce a system that is better than either the current electoral college or the about-to-be nationwide plurality.
And Brett, you missed the point: Passage in California (or any other state) does not make it immediately effective. It is effective (meaning a state gives its electoral votes to the national popular-vote winner, regardless of which ticket won the most votes in that state) only after states that add up to 270 electoral votes have compacted to do so.
Comment by MSS — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 11:57 am
I was under the impression that this scheme was not part of the NPV compact. The NPV compact is about doing a national popular vote, not splitting electoral votes along Congressional districts as the California initiative proposes.
Comment by Brett — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 3:37 pm
Brett, it’s noted in the LAT article that Steven linked to that the proposal that is favored by some Dems in California is explicitly linked to the NPV compact.
The proposal that some Republicans are backing would be for the state only, and would be based on congressional districts (like Maine and Nebraska currently). There are also some Democrats in North Carolina talking about a similar district plan in that state.
I discuss both of these ballot initiatives today at Fruits & Votes.
Comment by MSS — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 6:50 pm
Pakistan’s Supreme Court has ruled that exiled former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif can return to the country.
Sharif was ousted in a coup in 1999 by Pakistan’s current president, Pervez Musharraf. He was sentenced to life in prison by the new government, but went into exile in Saudi Arabia. His return will add another piece to an increasingly volatile situation in Pakistan.
One has to wonder if the newly re-instated Chief Justice of the Pakistani Supreme Court is behind this move. At a minimum, it will be interesting to see how Musharraf reacts.
Indeed, it has been interesting to see the Pakistani court to be as much of a burr in Musharaff’s side as they have been. Here’s another example from earlier in the month (also via the BBC): Court keeps pressure on Musharraf.
More bad news for Musharraf. He’s had a harder time justifying martial law lately and it’s really the glue holding his government in place. Real elections will send him packing.
It also seems improbable to me that a freely elected government would be supportive of US involvement in the region; this strikes me as bad for the US and the west in general, at least in the short term.
Comment by Captain D. — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 7:40 am
Capt D.
It is a bad news for Americans. They were trying to bring back Benazir Bhutto. They think She is secular and moderate. Now It looks Musharraf has frustrated American move.
Islamists will become more powerful in Pakistan.
Because of follies of American offcials , they have lost an important ally in the region.
Pakistan wil join SCO - an anti-American alliance .
Comment by Munaeem — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 7:57 am
Comment by Munaeem — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 5:08 pm
[…] Last week I noted that the Pakistani PM that Musharaff ousted in a 1999 coup was going to be returning to Pakistan. Now another former PM, Benazir Bhutto, is getting involved as well (via the CSM, Nawaz Sharif: Pakistan’s new leadership contender): President Pervez Musharraf’s meticulously managed political stage was jolted this week by the news that he may face challenges to his power from not one, but two, of Pakistan’s exiled former prime ministers. The Supreme Court ruled that former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif – whom General Musharraf ousted from power in a 1999 military coup – is free to return to the country, adding to the political challenge posed by another former prime minister, Benazir Bhutto, who willingly left Pakistan after Musharraf’s coup. Musharraf reacted by immediately sending an envoy to London to push along a sputtering and stalling political deal with the two former leaders. The London meeting may indicate that the Pakistani president, faced with two formidable former prime ministers as opponents, a newly emboldened judiciary, and hostile public opinion polls, may be ready to cede some of the political space that he has dominated by force and manipulation for nearly eight years. […]
Gov. Janet Napolitano has decided to move up Arizona’s presidential primary by three weeks to Feb. 5, joining at least 19 other states with primaries or caucuses on that date.
Napolitano will invoke her authority under state law and move the primary from Feb. 26, aides told The Associated Press on Tuesday.
The Michigan Senate voted Wednesday to move the state’s presidential nomination contests to Jan. 15, further roiling an already turbulent nomination schedule that has raised the possibility of voting before New Year’s.
Maybe the Secretary of State of New Hampshire will just declare the NH Primary for next month, so we can just get this all over with…
California voters are inclined to support a proposed ballot initiative that would change how the Golden State allocates its electoral votes in presidential campaigns, but they’re not yet sold on the idea, a Field Poll released today showed.
Currently, California employs a winner-take-all system that awards the state’s entire 55 electoral votes to the winner of the state’s popular vote.
Under the proposed measure, which could be on the June 2024 ballot, the presidential election would become, in essence, a congressional district-by-congressional district contest. The winner of the statewide popular vote would receive two electoral votes, but the remaining votes would go to the winner in each of the 53 congressional districts.
[…]
The Field Poll found that 47 percent of registered voters back a change to California’s system for electoral votes, with 35 percent opposed. Republicans generally support the change more than Democrats.
I am all for doing away with the Electoral College. However, there is a very serious flaw in awarding electoral votes based on Congressional districts (as is already done in Maine and Nebraska). That flaw is the fact that the congressional districts in most states have been gerrymandered and usually in a way that radically over-represents one of the two parties–this is certainly the case in California, where a large number of the districts are “safe” for either the Democrats or the Republicans. So while smaller units with semi-predetermined outcomes beat large units with semi-predetermined outcomes, it still isn’t exactly democracy at its best.
Of course, this move in CA is one that Republicans would like very much, as it takes a huge number of electoral votes that are currently practically guaranteed to be in the Democratic column and splits off a good number of them for the Republican column.
Really, we need to sit down and hammer out a new primary system and a new electoral process for choosing the president, as there is no good reason to retain the Electoral College, as it distorts the democratic significance of both large and small states and essentially eliminates the important of some votes (e.g., Democratic votes in Texas essentially count for nothing under the current system).
It’s Nebraska (it is hard to keep all those corn-growing states apart).
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Wednesday, August 22, 2024 @ 1:05 pm
When you said “there is a serious flaw” the first thing that came to my mind was gerrymandering. And you are right, we definitely need a new system.
Comment by Jan — Wednesday, August 22, 2024 @ 2:59 pm
California’s Anti-Winner Take All Proposal
SFGate.com:California voters are inclined to support a proposed ballot initiative that would change how the Golden State allocates its electoral votes in presidential campaigns, but they’re not yet sold on the idea, a Field Poll released today showed….
I am not an expert on initiatives, but I recall that those who are say that they almost never pass if they start a campaign at under 50%.
Once California voters catch on to the fact that passing this would be akin to compensating the GOP for its likely loss of Ohio, they are pretty likely to defeat it overwhelmingly.
(Of course, it is not even sure yet to be on the ballot.)
The way to go with reform is the National Popular Vote interstate compact, but The Governator vetoed a bill that would have included California in the compact (which takes effect only when states that combine for 270 electoral votes have signed on).
Comment by MSS — Wednesday, August 22, 2024 @ 5:13 pm
Dr. Taylor,
I would also add that the electoral college has contributed to voter apathy. The presidential race is the highest-profile campaign in the nation, yet large chunks of the voting populace are already aware, today, that their votes in November 2024 will not matter.
Comment by MAR — Wednesday, August 22, 2024 @ 9:02 pm
The electoral college is the one thing that protects the smaller less populated states from being viewed as completely irrelevant to the national political scene. Move to a straight popular vote and it will be even worse. Presidential races will be completely driven by less than 15 states. Here in Louisiana, with a population of only 4.4 million, even if you win the state convincingly your margin of victory will be less than 250,000 votes. But that is a drop in the bucket compared to the potential vote margin in a state like Texas, California, or New York. The margins in the largest 8 or 9 states will likely eclipse the collective vote margins in the remaining 41-42 states. If my vote is not important now, it becomes completely meaningless by virtue of the geographic population distribution and how that will impact the way that campaigns are waged.
Comment by ts — Wednesday, August 22, 2024 @ 10:27 pm
ts,
That is a popular retort to the notion that we should do away with the EC, but the bottom line is that every individual vote, whether cast in North Dakota or Texas has more meaning in a direct election than it does under the EC.
Do you think, for example, that Democratic voters in Wyoming care well served by the EC? Or Republicans in Hawaii?
And anyway, how are the small states seen as relevant now? Campaigning is currently on taking place in battleground states, so it isn’t like the current system emphasizes small states over large ones. All that really matters at the moment is whether a state is competitive or not.
And, ultimately, it isn’t about how much time the candidate spends in your state, it is about whether your vote actually has a chance to effect the outcome of the race.
Seriously: if I come from a state which almost always/always votes for a specific party, how does the EC serve me? The problem is the same in the large, medium and small states.
Currently, Republican votes in CA don’t matter, and Democratic votes don’t matter in Texas. And again, Dems in Wyoming don’t matter nor do Reps in Hawaii.
How is this democratic?
And, really, how has the EC actually made candidates pay attention to smaller states? The answer is: it hasn’t.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 6:30 am
Not every voter can always be “well served” in this sense; however you slice the orange, you can only get so many pieces. In an election, someone will win, someone will lose, and someone will have their feelings hurt because their guy/gal didn’t win.
PLUS - let’s think about the practical side of the California initiative, since it’s what’s on the table. Let’s say we extend it to every state. Now instead of 50 places where there can be a close vote and a demand for a recount, we have 400. That’s 400 places for people to monkey around with the numbers, the incentive to do which would be much higher under the proposed system.
Imagine the lawsuits. Imagine the fights over who won this district or that. If California does this, with its 55 votes, it is singe-handedly doubling the potential places for the loser and his/her rockstar fans to file a lawsuit and make trouble.
Too complicated. If you’re going to monkey with the EC, you have to subtract moving parts, not add them. More moving parts is more room for things to get ugly.
I’d sooner have my face sewn to the floor than see this type of system implemented.
Someone’s always got to win, someone’s always got to lose, and the loser’s voters will always feel broken-hearted.
Maybe we should give consolation prizes or something. . .
Comment by Captain D. — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 7:33 am
[…] The following (from yesterday’s LAT) goes along with the other proposed CA initiative I noted yesterday: California Democrats push popular vote measure Democrats on Tuesday proposed putting on a 2024 ballot an initiative aimed at having California join the movement to elect presidents by popular vote. […] If backers gather sufficient signatures to place one of the Democratic measures on the ballot, and voters were to approve it, California would become one of roughly a dozen states to have embraced the concept of electing presidents by popular vote. The national drive toward a popular vote would not scrap the electoral college system, but would require states to award their electoral votes to whichever candidate wins the most actual votes nationally. It would take effect only if states representing a majority of the electoral votes agree to the change. […]
We are not a democracy, and were never intended to be. We are supposed to be a Republic, but too many people have forgotten that. The limits on Federal power have been diminishing and the concept of State sovereignty seems an antiquity. The move towards a national popular vote will do little more than speed the decay of states’ authority and independence.
Comment by ts — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 8:56 am
In the modern sense of the term, we are a democracy: a representative democracy. True, we were never intended to be a direct democracy, but then again such a thing never really existed.
There is nothing about the EC v. a direct election of the president that would make us more or less a “republic” for that matter.
How do you see the EC making us a “republic”?
In all seriousness, what does it mean to you to assert that are a “republic” rather than a “democracy”? I know people make this claim all the time (I know, for example, that Rush Limbaugh is quite prone to making it), but what does it mean?
Also: aside from over-representing citizens in small states and under-representing citizens in large state specifically ultimately really matter to federalism?
I would note, by the way that federalism is not the same thing as republicanism.
And, btw, if we are going to talk about intentions, I would point out that the EC has never, ever worked as the Founders intended. For example, they thought that the Congress would be regularly picking the president and veep. They certainly didn’t expect voters to choose the electors.
we frequently argue for the EC as though it is a direct reflection of the genius of the Founders. In fact, it was part of political compromise to get the Constitution ratified and it has never worked as designed.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 9:08 am
ts says: “The electoral college is the one thing that protects the smaller less populated states from being viewed as completely irrelevant to the national political scene.”
Uh, the SENATE?
And the whole “we are a republic” defense of the EC is just so patently absurd. Madison certainly was an advocate of the “republican form of government,” I think you will agree.
Madison’s original plan was for two houses with population-weighted representation (with the House actually having to confirm candidates for the nation’s upper house that were proposed by the states!), and a president elected by the Congress. No Senate ( as we know it) and no Electoral College. And also no supermajority required to override a veto.
The notion that the Electoral College is some sacred component of republican/representative (or even federal) government or was the great handiwork of the Founding Fathers is nothing but folklore. Powerful folklore, evidently, but folklore.
In fact, after the electoral college was thrust upon them, the founders never tried to defend it as part of a coherent model.
Comment by MSS — Thursday, August 23, 2024 @ 6:58 pm
To MSS - My thoughts were intended to be limited to Presidential elections, but you have a point. Although I have doubts that the Senate would be a very effective deterrent for very long, given the ability of the majority party to set the rules, the agenda, and nearly everything else.
What seems to be dominating much of this discussion is the current view of a strong, wide reaching federal system, which is not what the Founders wanted, and were largely fearful of. You can certainly argue that the EC is an anachronism, and I would respond that perspective is far more true as citizens and state governments have so willingly ceded responsibilities to a Federal government that was more than happy to consolidate as much power as possible.
This seems an attempt to make the individual feel relevant in a system where he becomes less so as each day passes.
The point is that the elimination of the EC wouldn’t just make individuals feel more relevant, it would actually make them more relevant.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 11:02 am
[…] To further the discussion from earlier in the week (here and here), here’s the latest from the Governor of CA on the proposal to split CA’s electoral vote up based on congressional districts: Schwarzenegger cool to electoral reforms Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger gave a chilly reception Thursday to a GOP-backed plan to change the way California awards electoral votes in presidential elections — a proposal critics say could tilt the outcome in favor of Republicans. […]
[…] To further the discussion from earlier in the week (here and here), here’s the latest from the Governor of CA on the proposal to split CA’s electoral vote up based on congressional districts: Schwarzenegger cool to electoral reforms Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger gave a chilly reception Thursday to a GOP-backed plan to change the way California awards electoral votes in presidential elections — a proposal critics say could tilt the outcome in favor of Republicans. […]
The AP-Ipsos poll found 22 percent of liberals and moderates said they had not read a book within the past year, compared with 34 percent of conservatives.
Among those who had read at least one book, liberals typically read nine books in the year, with half reading more than that and half less. Conservatives typically read eight, moderates five.
By slightly wider margins, Democrats tended to read more books than Republicans and independents. There were no differences by political party in the percentage of those who said they had not read at least one book.
A couple of things strike me. First is that by conflating “moderates” with “liberals” creates a false category to use in comparing to “conservatives”–so what that first paragraph above tells us is hard to say, unless one is simply trying to make a political point. The analysis is especially sloppy, because in the next paragraph we switch from liberal, moderate, conservative to Democrat, Republican and Independent—are these categories to be construed as the same or as different?
Ultimately, I am not surprised by the notion that liberals would, in the aggregate, read more books than conservatives, as liberals tend to be more educated, in the aggregate, than conservatives. Indeed, I would tend to think that the operative issue here is not partisan/ideological self-identification, but rather one of educational attainment. I suspect that if one compared libs and cons of similar educational level, that the reading issue would end up being similar regardless of ideology.
The funny thing about the story as written is that there is an inherent assumption that we are somehow talking about political books here, and the first couple of paragraphs are focused on the notion that conservatives read less because they have simpler ideas about politics:
Liberals read more books than conservatives. The head of the book publishing industry’s trade group says she knows why—and there’s little flattering about conservative readers in her explanation.
“The Karl Roves of the world have built a generation that just wants a couple slogans: ‘No, don’t raise my taxes, no new taxes,’” Pat Schroeder, president of the American Association of Publishers, said in a recent interview. “It’s pretty hard to write a book saying, ‘No new taxes, no new taxes, no new taxes’ on every page.”
Schroeder, who as a Colorado Democrat was once one of Congress’ most liberal House members, was responding to an Associated Press-Ipsos poll that found people who consider themselves liberals are more prodigious book readers than conservatives.
She said liberals tend to be policy wonks who “can’t say anything in less than paragraphs. We really want the whole picture, want to peel the onion.”
Egads, it’s Karl Rove’s fault! And really, Schroeder isn’t exactly an unbiased observer and to lead the story with her “assessment” isn’t exactly a study in good reporting.
Another major problem overall is that the poll is about reading in general, not reading of political books. Indeed, surely we are talking predominantly about fiction., not political manifestos.
The liberal versus conservative label helps the researchers make their preconceived point because they probably lumped virtually all blacks and hispanics into the conservative column because they go to church more than whites and do not support liberal social causes like gay marriage.
If you lumped the blacks and hispanics in with white liberals (basically the current Democratic party) you would get a different and not so sound bite worthy result.
Comment by superdestroyer — Wednesday, August 22, 2024 @ 7:14 am
I suspect that if one compared libs and cons of similar educational level, that the reading issue would end up being similar regardless of ideology.
Depends on how you define “educational level”. If you look at liberals and conservatives with bachelor’s degrees it may still favor liberals because they’re more likely to be English lit majors over business majors with the former being more likely to be avid readers.
Comment by R. Alex — Wednesday, August 22, 2024 @ 9:01 am
Do you have a reference on the “liberals more educated” statement? I’ve seen it before, but the only time I actually looked into at the numbers it was somewhat of a mixed bag.
Here’s my memory of going through some numbers once.
Didn’t finish high school — big liberal advantage.
The high school grads — slight conservative advantage.
Bachelor’s — Big conservative advantage.
Master’s — Big liberal advantage (predominately teachers)
Ph D — Mixed bag, slight liberal advantage.
[I may be confusing Dem/Rep with Lib/Cons can’t remember]
If my memory of the numbers is close, I’d say that the liberals occupy the ends of the spectrum, with the conservatives in the middle rather than liberals more educated.
Comment by Buckland — Wednesday, August 22, 2024 @ 9:02 am
On the other hand, leading conservative blogs are much more literate than their lefty counterparts (whether you look at things like books quoted, writing level, rhetorical maturity or what have you). But as you say the distinction probably disappears if you control for educational level.
Comment by Perry — Wednesday, August 22, 2024 @ 9:27 am
Blame it on Karl
Many people both conservative or liberal, prefer to read what they want to hear. In other words, people read books, blogs, magazines etc that affirm their beliefs. Speaking for myself, I like to read very divergent opinions.
It seems the bigger concern should be that regardless of who the Democratic nominee is, the door is open for the opposition to claim that they lacked the courage to face Brit Hume or Chris Wallace, how will they ever face off with Iran, North Korea, etc. It’s tailor made for a stump speech sound bite that will air on — Fox News.
Comment by ts — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 8:29 am
Dr. Taylor:
I first have to say I don’t think Fox News is “All Evil”. I’m also not a member of the “Democratic netroots”, however, you are logically wrong. Fox News is nothing more than a propaganda outlet for the Republican Party. Polls have shown that the most reliably Republican group of voters in the USA are regular watchers of Fox News. They are also shown to be by most polls to be the most ill-informed group as well. Fox News has no business sponsoring a Democratic candidate debate, any more than Air America would host a Republican debate.
Comment by Doug Trabaris — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 10:00 am
The implicit conflation here of You Tube and Fox as part of the same syndrome of “polarization of the media” that some Democratic candidates’ decisions “feeds” really does not stand up to scrutiny.
Who controls the content on Fox?
Now, who controls the content on You Tube?
I fail to see the parallel.
Comment by MSS — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 10:41 am
The parallel in question is not ideology, but that some of the Reps didn’t want to participate because of some perceptions that they had about the content of the questions. I think it is tactically problematic to eschew exposure.
And really, while I fully understand that the editorial content of Fox News is pro-administration, I have a hard time seeing an event co-sponsored by the CBC to be fully controlled by the ideological elements within Fox News.
Ultimately my argument is simple: more exposure is better for the candidates.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 11:00 am
Anyone who engages in cartoon characterizations of what the other side believes doesn’t deserve to be taken seriously. Though my political views are pretty darn liberal, I don’t think Fox news is “All Evil”, nor do I feel that way generally about conservatives and Republicans. Fox News is providing an alternative perspective countering what many feel is a liberal bias in the MSM. That’s not to say I don’t think Fox News is a joke, the transparent hostility toward liberals and Democrats is plain to all except the ultra-conservative and extreme partisan. I’m nearly equally as skeptical of CNN, ABC, CBS, NBC, The New York Times, The Washington Post and most all of big corporate-controlled American Media. IMO, televised presidential debates are mostly an opportunity to try and appear presidential while mouthing a lot of empty opinion-polled platitudes.
Comment by R.Mutt — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 11:27 am
I was being flippant, which I will grant is difficult for casual readers to pick up upon.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 12:08 pm
Let’s imagine that George Soros started a “news channel” and hired Hillary Clinton’s campaign manager as his news director, who in turned staffed this “news channel” with nothing but liberal pundits, and the news director circulated memos to his staff that the overarching purpose of this “news channel” was to help democrats get elected and aid the democratic agenda of those already in office. And let’s just imagine that this “news channel” has a history of smearing the republican presidential candidates on a nightly basis. I know, this sounds pretty far-fetched, but bear with me.
And let’s imagine that this “news channel” decided to host a Republican debate, to be moderated by one of its liberal pundits, produced by Hillary Clinton’s campaign manager and the questions to be written by its liberal pundits, and the broadcast to be produced, edited, and promoted by staffers who work under the company directive of aiding the democratic agenda. Plus, any video or transcripts of this debate that would be provided to other media outlets after the debate would be produced, edited and controlled by this “news channel.” And because this “news channel” would be the only media outlet airing this debate, most viewers would be likely to stay tuned to this “news channel’s” post debate analysis, which means that not only the production and direction of the debate itself, but the analysis of that debate which most viewers would get would all come from an unabashadly liberal network.
Now just how eager do you think the Republican candidates would be to participate in this debate?
Comment by Dr. Very Serious Person — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 1:12 pm
You presume that my position is pro-Republican, but that’s not my point.
I would have the same position, especially if the debate was gong to be sponsored by a group that was sympathetic to the Republican Party.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 1:21 pm
Your implied concern for the welfare of the Democratic party is trite beyond words. Of course you think it’d be better for them to debate on Fox News. Would you feel the same if the Republican candidates were invited to debate at an event hosted by, let’s say, Moveon.org?
Providing the GOP’s propagandists with the opportunity to smear Democrats would not seem to be in the best interests of the Democrats, to me.
Comment by Brian — Friday, August 24, 2024 @ 3:05 pm
Much of this discussion reinforces the point I made much earlier. The Democrats are creating the perception that they lack the courage of their convictions to even face off a debate moderator they view as hostile. This will not help them, especially since national security has been a perceived weakness for the Dems among voters.
Their best hope is that we are all so tired of these debates that apathy kicks in.
Comment by ts — Saturday, August 25, 2024 @ 9:24 am
“…in an election cycle wherein there GOP is already suffering in the eyes of the public and where the party’s voters aren’t exactly in love with their choices, it would seem to me that it would behoove the Democrats to cast their net as widely as possible”
I fail to see your logic here. If the GOP is suffering in the eyes of the public, shouldn’t the Democrats have to work less hard to get crossover votes?
Comment by 14All — Saturday, August 25, 2024 @ 5:18 pm
It’s called controlling the message. You’re assuming that any exposure is good exposure. There’s nothing to be gained by exposure to the hard core 28%. The only thing that will do will give Fox chances to do whatever it is Fox does.
If they’ve already got more than enough exposure - by your own admission - then the only thing they can get by going on a network that is *actively* arrayed against them is negative exposure.
It’s just simple game theory, eh?
Comment by Hal — Sunday, August 26, 2024 @ 12:49 pm
The thing is, there is no reason to believe that the debate itself would be some sort of right-wing attack. Again, the event was going to be co-sponsored by a part of the Congressional Black Caucus.
Beyond that, what is the real difference between, say Brit Hume asking questions than George Stephanapolous asking the questions?
It isn’t as if people with ideological positions, sometimes positions that rather well known, asking questions at these debates for decades.
I think all of this smacks of paranoia–that somehow they would be attacked if they went on Fox for this kind of event. People are making it out to assume like this was going to some sort of appearance on the O’Reilly Factor.
Comment by Dr. Steven Taylor — Sunday, August 26, 2024 @ 4:15 pm