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Tuesday, October 5, 2004
First Assessment
By Dr. Steven Taylor @ 9:45 pm

Cheney came across as having far more information than Edwards with a clear, calm command of the facts. Edwards did a good job, but his answers came across as a mix of serious policy, pure politics, and pre-prepared attack points. Edwards was much more of an attack dog than was Cheney.

I predict that because Edwards had no major gaffes, that the pundits will declare him vice-presidential, and therefore, the winner (since these things are more about perception than substance). However, on substance, Cheney won in my mind.

I will say this: there is no way to credibly spin Cheney in the Dark Lord of the Sith role in tonight’s debate.

I am not sure what points that Edwards scored for his ticket in terms of specific points, but he did a good job positioning himself for 2008, should it come to that.

I predict that the internals of the polls will show that the voters find Cheney as being more comforting on the security issues than Edwards–and that such will redound to the ticket itself.

Filed under: General | |Send TrackBack

The Indepundit linked with Instant Analysis
Outside The Beltway linked with Cheney-Edwards Debate Morning After Roundup
Interested-Participant linked with Cheney - Edwards Debate Mini-Wrap
The Moderate Voice linked with The Veep Debate: A Classic Draw?
bLogicus linked with Cheney - Edwards Vice Presidential Debate
The Indepundit linked with Liveblogging Veep Debate
The Indepundit linked with Liveblogging Veep Debate
Peaktalk linked with DEBATE COMMENT
InTheBullpen.com linked with VP Debate Live Blogging
RIGHT ON RED >> linked with VP Debate

26 Comments »

  1. I don’t see how you could spin this as a win for Edwards. He kept going back to past questions. “Let me rebut the last question AGAIN before avoiding this next question.”

    Of course, Diane Feinstein is spinning away. Hope and optimism, even as the light is flickering. Geez.

    Comment by bryan — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 9:48 pm

  2. The net effect of this event on the 2004 presidential race, as is historically true of VP candidate debates, will be only a bit more than zero. By this same time Friday evening, it will be largely forgotten and the focus will return almost exclusively to Mr. Bush and Mr. Kerry.

    Comment by w4jfr — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 9:54 pm

  3. Ah, but a bit more than zero in this race is something! ;)

    Comment by Steven Taylor — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 9:57 pm

  4. VP Debate
    In the Bullpen
    Blogs of War
    Six Meat Buffet
    Blogs for Bush
    Vodkapundit
    PoliBlog
    Wizbang
    Ace of Spades gives us the visual of the night

    No live blogging tonight; the tv is in the other room, and there are plenty of bloggers doing it anyway. I…

    Trackback by RIGHT ON RED >> — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 10:09 pm

  5. VP Debate Live Blogging
    In a quick summation, Dick Cheney completely outclassed John Edwards in a number of ways. Not only did Cheney appear more presidential, he made sounder arguments while Edwards repeated much of what Kerry has said, not to mention Michael Moore.

    Trackback by InTheBullpen.com — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 10:22 pm

  6. Cheney and Edwards had some very distinct and difficult tasks this evening. Edwards had to demonstrate that he could go “toe to toe” with the VP. He accomplished that.

    Cheney had the task of repairing at least some of the damage done to the ticket by Mr. Bush’s performance last Thursday night. He accomplished that, at least until Friday.

    Nonetheless, he was treading a “fine line”. In accomplishing his goal of slowing down the Kerry surge (and, frankly, to stop the bleeding), he had to perform better than the man on the top of the ticket–Bush. That is dangerous for any VP candidate.

    To many undecided voters he may have strongly confirmed that he is the man “really” on top of and in control of administration policies (something that many people have suspected all along). That is much more of a liability than an asset in the present circumstances. He is scary to many people (that fact is confirmed in his consistent unfavorable ratings). To now confirm that he is the one “pulling the strings” will not sit well with many undecideds. So…by doing well, in the end he may have weakened the ticket overall.

    Comment by w4jfr — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 10:24 pm

  7. I don’t think it’s fair to raise the point of Cheney being the Dark Lord of the Sith without giving a link to Rusty.

    He’s still holding on to that comparison.

    Comment by Leopold Stotch — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 10:26 pm

  8. I don’t know if this hit anyone else. As a past debater and current lawyer, I notice4d that Edwards, on a number of occasions, used the “last word” 30 second rejoinder to bring up a completely new point. It was not one covered in the previous speeches, but a tangent that was not a response to anything said in the previous speech/counter/rebuttal, but was a wholly new topic.

    The net effect of bringing up a new point only after your opponent’s last chance to speak — when the opponent has no chance to respond — is considered underhanded. He lost points from me on that, but as I said, I don’t know if it strikes anyone else that way.

    Comment by Steven L. — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 10:52 pm

  9. Liveblogging Veep Debate
    SORRY, no picture-in-picture this time. But TiVo is engaged, so I won’t miss anything. CHENEY AND EDWARDS walk in, shake hands, then sit down and start writing frantically. They’ve probably memorized some key talking points, and are taking the opport…

    Trackback by The Indepundit — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 10:54 pm

  10. Liveblogging Veep Debate
    SORRY, no picture-in-picture this time. But TiVo is engaged, so I won’t miss anything. CHENEY AND EDWARDS walk in, shake hands, then sit down and start writing frantically. They’ve probably memorized some key talking points, and are taking the opport…

    Trackback by The Indepundit — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 11:10 pm

  11. No need for gaffes on Edwards’ part, Cheney’s direct hit on the pretty boy’s senate attendance record was rich.

    Comment by OF Jay — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 11:13 pm

  12. DEBATE COMMENT
    The Veep Debate was almost as expected: Edwards fiercely on the attack and often shooting from the hip, while Cheney was calm and very persuasive. He didnít just have substance, he was substance, prompting my wife to ask why he

    Trackback by Peaktalk — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 11:15 pm

  13. Liveblogging Veep Debate
    SORRY, no picture-in-picture this time. But TiVo is engaged, so I won’t miss anything. CHENEY AND EDWARDS walk in, shake hands, then sit down and start writing frantically. They’ve probably memorized some key talking points, and are taking the opport…

    Trackback by The Indepundit — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 11:15 pm

  14. Liveblogging Veep Debate
    SORRY, no picture-in-picture this time. But TiVo is engaged, so I won’t miss anything. CHENEY AND EDWARDS walk in, shake hands, then sit down and start writing frantically. They’ve probably memorized some key talking points, and are taking the opport…

    Trackback by The Indepundit — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 11:41 pm

  15. ..wasn`t even close DC put the breck girl to bed and turned out the lights..
    nitty-nite…

    Comment by Rob_NC — Tuesday, October 5, 2004 @ 11:50 pm

  16. Liveblogging Veep Debate
    SORRY, no picture-in-picture this time. But TiVo is engaged, so I won’t miss anything. CHENEY AND EDWARDS walk in, shake hands, then sit down and start writing frantically. They’ve probably memorized some key talking points, and are taking the opport…

    Trackback by The Indepundit — Wednesday, October 6, 2004 @ 12:06 am

  17. As far as Edwards positioning himself for 2008 if they lose, I just don’t see it. He’s out of the Senate after this, and has no power base in his home state to work from. Who would back him? Especially with Hillary, who’ll be a sitting Senator with a powerbase (and money bag) sitting there ready to roll.

    Comment by TC-LeatherPenguin — Wednesday, October 6, 2004 @ 12:52 am

  18. Cheney - Edwards Vice Presidential Debate
    In my quick review of several bloggers and news organizations it appears that conservatives give the debate to Dick Cheney while liberals favor John Edwars. Both sides appear very confident in their respective assessments. Having a conservative orienta…

    Trackback by bLogicus — Wednesday, October 6, 2004 @ 12:59 am

  19. Cheney - Edwards Vice Presidential Debate
    In my quick review of several bloggers and news organizations it appears that conservatives give the debate to Dick Cheney while liberals favor John Edwars. Both sides appear very confident in their respective assessments. Having a conservative orienta…

    Trackback by bLogicus — Wednesday, October 6, 2004 @ 1:00 am

  20. Cheney - Edwards Vice Presidential Debate
    In my quick review of several bloggers and news organizations it appears that conservatives give the debate to Dick Cheney while liberals favor John Edwards. Both sides appear very confident in their respective assessments. Having a conservative orient…

    Trackback by bLogicus — Wednesday, October 6, 2004 @ 1:01 am

  21. The Veep Debate: A Classic Draw?
    A see-saw Vice Presidential debate featured Vice President Dick Cheney and John Edwards showing off some of their best — and least-best stuff — and it ended in a draw. (See below on polls which don’t agree. But then we

    Trackback by The Moderate Voice — Wednesday, October 6, 2004 @ 2:20 am

  22. I see a lot of comments here in favor of Cheney that seem to be somewhat partisan, and that’s reasonable. There are similar comments in favor of Edwards on Democratic-leaning sites, and in the middle you find a mix of opinions. That’s more or less what you expect to find after a quality debate, and I chalk this one up as more or less a draw.

    I’m an independent who gave the Bush administration many chances to prove itself but feel that it’s let us down completely. One of the reasons it’s let us down is Cheney. Note that Cheney referred to his old contacts with Democrats from way back. And it’s true: Cheney used to be a pretty reasonable guy. And he certainly sounded fairly reasonable in the debate tonight, particularly if you don’t closely follow what he’s been up to over the last few years.

    The fact is, Cheney has consistently misrepresented easy, obvious facts over the last few years, and even worse, developed what Colin Powell calls a “fever” for a specific neoconservative agenda. This agenda was created long before 9/11, and made no reference whatsoever to al-Qaeda. That’s why we see this administration pursuing a plan that all-but-neglects al-Qaeda — which is horrible, shameful, and inexcusable, since al-Qaeda cost us 3000 American lives and two skyscrapers.

    There have been stretches recently where nearly every sentence that comes out of Cheney’s mouth is a complete lie. And I don’t use that word lightly. I usually give politicians the benefit of the doubt, unlike some. Cheney continued to hype the long debunked supposed-link between 9/11 hijacker Mohammad Atta and Iraqi intelligence, first introduced by the Czechs, after no one believed it anymore, including the Czechs themselves. This went on for months and months. The Iraq-al-Qaeda connection is a theme with Cheney. Listen to me: there was NO MEANINGFUL LINK between Saddam and al-Qaeda prior to 9/11. We have torn up Iraq, and authorities around the world have sifted through al-Qaeda stuff. They’ve found nothing. (No, al-Zarqawi is NOT al-Qaeda. He was competing with bin Laden. And he stayed in Baghdad for TWO months. Wow. 19 9/11 hijackers each stayed in America for longer.) Not only that, bin Laden and Saddam hated each other. Bin Laden called Saddam’s regime an “apostate regime” and Saddam did what he could to root out al-Qaeda and its allies — not surprising, since they wanted to overthrow him.

    Cheney is NOT the rock-solid national security guy that many believe him to be, or that he used to be. He’s changed over the last few years, and he somewhat evoked the old Cheney in this debate, but I urge you not to take what he says at face-value. I did not set out to distrust Cheney. In fact, I once had a decent opinion of him. But after looking in some detail into what this administration is doing, I’m extremely concerned for the future of America, and Cheney is one of the reasons why. This administration is accusing Kerry-Edwards of not understanding the “war on terror.” But the EXACT OPPOSITE is true. It’s Bush and Cheney who don’t get it.

    Al-Qaeda is a PRIVATELY-SPONSORED terrorist organization, not state-sponsored. Even if it WAS state-sponsored, Saddam Hussein wouldn’t have sponsored it. Not only that, Saddam didn’t have nukes anyway, which is the real concern. And the IAEA told us before the war, VERY CONVINCINGLY, that his entire nuclear program was a joke.

    This war was conducted in entirely the wrong way at entirely the wrong time, at a very critical juncture in history. And the Bush administration still doesn’t understand what they’ve done wrong, or are still doing wrong. America desperately needs new guys in office. None of the candidates are perfect, but as an independent who has great respect for many Republicans, including Bush’s father, and who tries to look at what’s going on objectively rather than through a partisan lens, I urge everyone to look twice at this administration, including Dick Cheney.

    (Bush’s father’s Secretary of Defense, by the way, was a much different, and much more reasonable Dick Cheney — one who was AGAINST toppling Saddam because he feared precisely the situation we now have on our hands. Bush’s father was also against toppling Saddam, then and now. So was Colin Powell, HW’s JCS. Powell was against it this time until after Bush made the final decision. Brent Scowcroft, HW’s national security advisor, also against it both times. James Bakker, HW’s Secretary of State, also against it, and this time against at least a unilateral war without exercising diplomatic and inspections options — as Bush did not.)

    I believe now isn’t the time for cheerleading. Now is the time for looking deeply into what’s really going on. America’s future depends on this election, and I hope we make the wise choice.

    Comment by kdp — Wednesday, October 6, 2004 @ 4:10 am

  23. Cheney - Edwards Debate Mini-Wrap
    Based upon my quick review, Cheney showed his strengths, which are many, and Edwards was a cute new guy but you’d do further checking before you allowed him to go out with your daughter.

    Trackback by Interested-Participant — Wednesday, October 6, 2004 @ 6:31 am

  24. Cheney-Edwards Debate Morning After Roundup
    The little bit of commentary I’ve heard on the debate so far confirms my analysis last night: Cheney won the debate but Edwards did reasonably well given the experience gap. The early polls are mixed, although my guess is they won’t have much impac…

    Trackback by Outside The Beltway — Wednesday, October 6, 2004 @ 8:26 am

  25. the view from ireland: http://www.siglamag.com/features/0410/BushBashing.html

    Comment by fmk — Wednesday, October 6, 2004 @ 9:53 am

  26. Instant Analysis
    NOTE: This post has been seperated from the original “Liveblogging” entry. We apologize for any inconvenience. NO KNOCKOUT PUNCHES tonight, but Cheney got in some good body blows and uppercuts as noted above. Edwards is a good speaker, but looks…

    Trackback by The Indepundit — Wednesday, October 6, 2004 @ 11:44 am

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